E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper • Hacker News Board

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#61

Post by chrismorgan » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:06 PM UTC

fencepost wrote: post #32

chrismorgan wrote: post #11

> They can display a total of 32,000 colors and 200 to 300 PPI, depending on the screen size. I’m going to guess that’s 15-bit colour (32,768 colours) in the form of RGB channels, 5 bits per channel (32 possible values). For full colour imagery, I imagine you’d still want dithering to simulate higher bit depths. 300dpi is fine enough that I believe you could make it very subtle indeed, so that you could well have to…

It may depend in part on the nature and color of the pigments being used - they may have 64k colors in theory but not all distinguishable. There are also ongoing discoveries in pigments, for example YInMn Blue which still has very limited availability. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/YInMn_Blue https://news.artnet.com/art-world/yinmn-blue-comes-market-19...

I very much doubt they’d shrink 65,536 to 40,000, even if some of the values were indistinguishable from others. That’s not how marketing works! If you have a 3×9 gear combination on a bicycle, you call it 27 gears, never mind that a lot of it is overlap and that it’s even possible for some ratios to be identical (e.g. 26:9 and 52:18 is conceivable).

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#62

Post by GekkePrutser » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

elaus wrote: post #12

I'm still waiting for widely available and affordable e-ink displays for tinkerers. I'd love to put one onto a Raspberry Pi to show some information, but it's just too expensive right now.

Waveshare have them for really small prices. https://www.waveshare.com

Also, this is really cool: https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/inky-impression

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#63

Post by D13Fd » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

syshum wrote: post #29

listerOfSmeg wrote: post #6

E-ink is one of those techs that only advanced when large batches of patents expire. E-ink the company has tied up the tech stack in so many patents, NDA's, and exorbitant prices that no one wants to touch it. E-ink the technology wont go any where for 10-15 years when that next big batch of patents expire. Its just like 3D displays and VR there will be a massive consumer push new batches of patents will be filed pro…

Another example of how IP laws have become an enemy of the goals society had when passing them, which is not to enrich a few corporations but to incentivize innovation, but now it is clear copyright, and patents today are doing far more HARM to innovation than they advance it As such we as a society need to look hard at those laws and policies to reform them Sadly the large corporations have a huge amounts of lobby m…

I strongly disagree about patents. This is the patent system working as designed. It incentivized a company to invent a new thing, and gave them a monopoly for a reasonable amount of time (20 years). When it ends, others can operate in the space.

I agree about copyright, though. Copyright has been expanded to cover software and even APIs. Copyright is a giant drag on innovation. A single company can tie up a space for life of the author plus 70 years, which is absurd. Copyright should never have applied to most forms of software, which clearly fall into the exceptions of 17 USC § 102(b). But we are where we are.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#64

Post by bastawhiz » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:07 PM UTC

mrfusion wrote: post #37

listerOfSmeg wrote: post #6

E-ink is one of those techs that only advanced when large batches of patents expire. E-ink the company has tied up the tech stack in so many patents, NDA's, and exorbitant prices that no one wants to touch it. E-ink the technology wont go any where for 10-15 years when that next big batch of patents expire. Its just like 3D displays and VR there will be a massive consumer push new batches of patents will be filed pro…

Speaking of that, I’d love to get an alert whenever a major patent like that expires. It would help predict the tech landscape a few years out. Anyone know of any major expirations in the next few years?

The trouble is knowing what patents are "big". There are few good signals for patents that are holding back innovation.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#65

Post by GekkePrutser » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:09 PM UTC

jagger27 wrote: post #2

I'll believe it when I see it. 32,000 colours at 200 to 300 DPI is incredible.

It's already here, they speak of the current-generation ACeP: https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/inky-impression

Saturation, contrast and refresh are still the main weaknesses though. Especially because a full-color display uses numerous full-page refreshes to achieve all colours which are really jarring.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#66

Post by est31 » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:12 PM UTC

mynameisvlad wrote: post #58

spoonjim wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But isn’t it those same companies that are the reason that memory isn’t $1000/megabyte?

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here. Are you implying that they could price gouge even more than they already are and are keeping prices relatively low out of the goodness of their hearts?

I think their point is that these companies gave us cheap memory in the first place. Which is an important thing to remember. The distruptors of days past are the monopolists of today. And they themselves will be disrupted one day.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#67

Post by z3t4 » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:19 PM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #45

est31 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you want to innovate when the bigger competitor can just copy you without paying you anything? This current situation is unfortunate, but I think it's an imperfection of the market. If the patent owning company had been a bit less greedy, they could have made far more money with it.

> Why would you want to innovate when the bigger competitor can just copy you without paying you anything? Because they can't begin to copy you until you've released your product to market, so you have profit potential for being the first mover. This happens all the time as only a small percentage of the innovation that occurs actually gets patented. In some cases it would be possible for a big company to take your i…

There are so many people out there with crazy ideas, but they don't want to invest in it because they know they will be eaten by a bigger fish. Their only hope is to stay under the radar long enough so that they will have enough money to retire once their idea gets copied.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#68

Post by treeman79 » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

mendelmaleh wrote: post #60

dsr_ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's an article from 2011 doing Moore's Law extrapolation of RAM and disk prices: https://antranik.org/using-moores-law-to-predict-future-memo... RAM, 2011: "A single 8GB stick of RAM is about $80 right now. In 2021, you’d be able to buy a single stick of RAM that contains 64GB for the same price." Disks, 2011: "The price of a 1-terabyte hard drive is $80 now... In 2013, a 2TB drive will be $80. In 2015, a 4TB driv…

For the record, it's 2021 and the cheapest 16tb hard drive on pcpartpicker is $335. For $80 you can get a cheap 4tb hard drive.

When I was a kid, me and a friend would be amazed at a 25,000 dollar 1 TB multi hd array.

We couldn’t imagine how anyone would ever need so much space.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#69

Post by syshum » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:24 PM UTC

D13Fd wrote: post #63

syshum wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another example of how IP laws have become an enemy of the goals society had when passing them, which is not to enrich a few corporations but to incentivize innovation, but now it is clear copyright, and patents today are doing far more HARM to innovation than they advance it As such we as a society need to look hard at those laws and policies to reform them Sadly the large corporations have a huge amounts of lobby m…

I strongly disagree about patents. This is the patent system working as designed. It incentivized a company to invent a new thing, and gave them a monopoly for a reasonable amount of time (20 years). When it ends, others can operate in the space. I agree about copyright, though. Copyright has been expanded to cover software and even APIs. Copyright is a giant drag on innovation. A single company can tie up a space fo…

Clearly it is not, e-Ink, 3d printing, VR, and hosts of other technology has been held back not advanced because of patents

Now that is not to say I would advocate for complete removal of the patent systems but I do think Compulsory FRAND style licensing should be a requirement of obtaining a patent

Your distinction between Copyright and Patent is also strang as the suffer from the same flaw so it seems your only justification is that you believe 20 years is "reasonable" but Life is not

I think both are unreasonable, I would personally like to see both dropped to 10 years, or some compromise where you get 2-3 years exclusive use of the creation then have some kind of compulsory license where the creator is compensated but can not with hold the creation for 20 years (with some kind of scheme that the license be fair and equitable)

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#70

Post by zimpenfish » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #65

jagger27 wrote: post #2

I'll believe it when I see it. 32,000 colours at 200 to 300 DPI is incredible.

It's already here, they speak of the current-generation ACeP: https://shop.pimoroni.com/products/inky-impression Saturation, contrast and refresh are still the main weaknesses though. Especially because a full-color display uses numerous full-page refreshes to achieve all colours which are really jarring.

> Especially because a full-color display uses numerous full-page refreshes to achieve all colours which are really jarring.

Can confirm - I have a Kaleido based e-reader and whilst I do like that book covers are in colour, scrolling through even a small library is jank central due to the multiple refreshes.