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E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

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Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#21

Post by IgorPartola »

coder543 wrote: post #17
elaus wrote: post #12

I'm still waiting for widely available and affordable e-ink displays for tinkerers. I'd love to put one onto a Raspberry Pi to show some information, but it's just too expensive right now.

Define "too expensive". Is $20 really too much? https://www.adafruit.com/product/4687 The larger the display, the more expensive it is, but that's not unusual, and LCDs aren't much different in price until you start to get to really large e-ink panels. (Given the depth of the LCD market, I'm sure you can find unusually cheap panels somewhere... the point remains. The prices aren't that bad these days for e-ink.)

For that size screen, yes. I think roughly $1-3/screen for that size is good. That’s what a small OLED screen will run you at any kind of volume. For $20 I would want something on the order of 6x8”. For $35 a 20” diagonal panel.

Granted you linked to Adafruit which is wonderful for their educational resources and easy to use high quality components, but that’s not where I would source parts for a project unless they had something truly unique or I was buying it for a newbie who could use the support they provide (bought some Arduino stuff from them recently for my kids).

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#22

Post by i386 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #21
coder543 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "too expensive". Is $20 really too much? https://www.adafruit.com/product/4687 The larger the display, the more expensive it is, but that's not unusual, and LCDs aren't much different in price until you start to get to really large e-ink panels. (Given the depth of the LCD market, I'm sure you can find unusually cheap panels somewhere... the point remains. The prices aren't that bad these days for e-ink.)

For that size screen, yes. I think roughly $1-3/screen for that size is good. That’s what a small OLED screen will run you at any kind of volume. For $20 I would want something on the order of 6x8”. For $35 a 20” diagonal panel. Granted you linked to Adafruit which is wonderful for their educational resources and easy to use high quality components, but that’s not where I would source parts for a project unless they…

You’re quibbling over something that costs less than a moderately priced lunch and a parking meter ticket. Buy the screen.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#23

Post by coder543 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #21
coder543 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "too expensive". Is $20 really too much? https://www.adafruit.com/product/4687 The larger the display, the more expensive it is, but that's not unusual, and LCDs aren't much different in price until you start to get to really large e-ink panels. (Given the depth of the LCD market, I'm sure you can find unusually cheap panels somewhere... the point remains. The prices aren't that bad these days for e-ink.)

For that size screen, yes. I think roughly $1-3/screen for that size is good. That’s what a small OLED screen will run you at any kind of volume. For $20 I would want something on the order of 6x8”. For $35 a 20” diagonal panel. Granted you linked to Adafruit which is wonderful for their educational resources and easy to use high quality components, but that’s not where I would source parts for a project unless they…

> For that size screen, yes. I think roughly $1-3/screen for that size is good.

That's just unrealistic. Similar LCD screen is also $20: https://www.adafruit.com/product/358

If you negotiate directly with manufacturers, or order direct from china, I'm certain both of these would be much cheaper, but I'm talking about US retail prices and how LCD and E-Ink are very similarly priced at this level.

> but that’s not where I would source parts for a project unless they had something truly unique

I can link you to other retailers who charge very similar prices. Direct from china is different, and similarly, you can find these e-ink displays for cheaper on aliexpress and similar. That's irrelevant to the discussion.

$20 is fine for this. We're not (as far as I'm aware) talking about someone making a product to sell in bulk on kickstarter. We're talking about buying one to use at home.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#25

Post by [deleted] »

_Microft wrote: post #14
listerOfSmeg wrote: post #6

E-ink is one of those techs that only advanced when large batches of patents expire. E-ink the company has tied up the tech stack in so many patents, NDA's, and exorbitant prices that no one wants to touch it. E-ink the technology wont go any where for 10-15 years when that next big batch of patents expire. Its just like 3D displays and VR there will be a massive consumer push new batches of patents will be filed pro…

Don’t forget 3D printing that also only really started when patents expired.

[deleted]

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#26

Post by IgorPartola »

coder543 wrote: post #23
IgorPartola wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For that size screen, yes. I think roughly $1-3/screen for that size is good. That’s what a small OLED screen will run you at any kind of volume. For $20 I would want something on the order of 6x8”. For $35 a 20” diagonal panel. Granted you linked to Adafruit which is wonderful for their educational resources and easy to use high quality components, but that’s not where I would source parts for a project unless they…

> For that size screen, yes. I think roughly $1-3/screen for that size is good. That's just unrealistic. Similar LCD screen is also $20: https://www.adafruit.com/product/358 If you negotiate directly with manufacturers, or order direct from china, I'm certain both of these would be much cheaper, but I'm talking about US retail prices and how LCD and E-Ink are very similarly priced at this level. > but that’s not wher…

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mr3Zg1T

This is the price you’d pay if you are willing to wait. I rarely need just one component and 5 displays at $20 is serious. If you want to sell a device, a $20 can easily kill your profit margin.

I am talking about direct from China and potentially selling products because if you just limit the discussion to single component hobby use then no amount is really too high. Why not $40? $80? You only need one, right?

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#27

Post by coder543 »

IgorPartola wrote: post #26
coder543 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For that size screen, yes. I think roughly $1-3/screen for that size is good. That's just unrealistic. Similar LCD screen is also $20: https://www.adafruit.com/product/358 If you negotiate directly with manufacturers, or order direct from china, I'm certain both of these would be much cheaper, but I'm talking about US retail prices and how LCD and E-Ink are very similarly priced at this level. > but that’s not wher…

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mr3Zg1T This is the price you’d pay if you are willing to wait. I rarely need just one component and 5 displays at $20 is serious. If you want to sell a device, a $20 can easily kill your profit margin. I am talking about direct from China and potentially selling products because if you just limit the discussion to single component hobby use then no amount is really too high. Why not $40? $8…

I literally already said you can pay less on aliexpress, and the same absolutely applies to e-ink.

If you're making a point, I can't figure out what it is. This is way off topic.

EDIT: you have edited in some more relevant points, but there definitely is a price that's too high. If you had to pair a $35 computer with a $100 display, most people would absolutely find that to be too much in this hobby context. They would have to either have a lot of money, or a lot of passion for a particular project in order to justify that. Most people will find $20 to be reasonable.

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#28

Post by colejohnson66 »

amelius wrote: post #15

Why does every article on e-paper omit the most interesting bit of information? I.e. the refresh time.

Because it’s bad compared to every other digital display. They’re always on the order of seconds, and get even worse the more colors there are. Tri-color displays (red, white, and black) are sometimes up to a dozen seconds or worse. For example, [0] has a refresh time of fifteen seconds! I’d be surprised if this isn’t an order of magnitude worse than that.

[0]: https://www.good-display.com/product/223.html

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#29

Post by syshum »

listerOfSmeg wrote: post #6

E-ink is one of those techs that only advanced when large batches of patents expire. E-ink the company has tied up the tech stack in so many patents, NDA's, and exorbitant prices that no one wants to touch it. E-ink the technology wont go any where for 10-15 years when that next big batch of patents expire. Its just like 3D displays and VR there will be a massive consumer push new batches of patents will be filed pro…

Another example of how IP laws have become an enemy of the goals society had when passing them, which is not to enrich a few corporations but to incentivize innovation, but now it is clear copyright, and patents today are doing far more HARM to innovation than they advance it

As such we as a society need to look hard at those laws and policies to reform them

Sadly the large corporations have a huge amounts of lobby money and are rapidly attempting to get the terrible IP laws codified into complex international treaties to ensure no nation can do any reform at all

Re: E Ink has developed a 2nd generation Advanced Color E-Paper

#30

Post by systemvoltage »

_Microft wrote: post #14
listerOfSmeg wrote: post #6

E-ink is one of those techs that only advanced when large batches of patents expire. E-ink the company has tied up the tech stack in so many patents, NDA's, and exorbitant prices that no one wants to touch it. E-ink the technology wont go any where for 10-15 years when that next big batch of patents expire. Its just like 3D displays and VR there will be a massive consumer push new batches of patents will be filed pro…

Don’t forget 3D printing that also only really started when patents expired.

Between 2007-2009, 80+ Stratasys patents expired. Think about this - a single company holding back the world in advancing forward in 3D printing. Orthogonally, ever wondered why memory on your PC is so expensive? Thanks to Micron, Hynix and Samsung triopoly.
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