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‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

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Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#121
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am sorry to say you might have to go read the linked paper, where this is discussed. The upshot is, visually distinguishing two stars is a function of both their proximity and relative brightness. https://www.dropbox.com/s/np0n4v72bdl37gr/sevensisters.pdf?d...

I am sorry to say that after reading the paper, I found no discussion of this matter.

"A second factor, called “glare function" by physiologists, is what prevents you from seeing details next to car headlights pointing at you. The glare function depends on the dynamic range and psf of the human eye. Imperfections in the human eye give it a psf which has a broad base a few arcmin wide (Ginis et al., 2012), which in turn limits the dynamic range. As a result, faint stars cannot be seen within a few arcmin of bright stars...

Pleione is five arcmin from the star Atlas, which is about four times brighter than Pleione, and the resulting glare from Atlas prevents most people from seeing Pleione."

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

idk about you but when i look at it I see 6. been trying to spot #7, no luck so far.

Do you live in the middle of nowhere, far away from any light pollution? If not, your inability to see more than 6 means nothing about what someone 2000 years ago would have been able to see.

Not the OP, but I have been observing the naked eye sky for decades from many different locations, including locations far from light pollution. In my best nights, when I was young, and far from light pollution, I could never make out more than 6 stars. And I'm able to spot Alcor very easily, even in suboptimal conditions.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#123
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had a very kid-friendly book of ancient Greek myths[0] as part of mandatory reading (actually one of the first books I've read) and it includes this story. It's a great way of learning — basically a fairy tale compilation, but the fairy tales are worthy of learning about. Also, the reader learns much about the historical setting. Would be amazing to write/popularize similar books on other cultures as well. Perhaps…

> Perhaps the Judge Di series[1] about an 18th century Chinese detective No, the series is from the 18th century. Di Renjie lived in the 7th century.

Most of the series is from the 20th-c., based on the 18th century novel (about 7th-century detective).

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#124
In Indian astrology, the lunar mansion of Krittika is the same as Pleiades.

In Vedic astrology, there are 12 houses and 27 lunar mansions or nakshatras. They are the daughters of Daksha, one of the progenitors of humans. He was also responsible for the procreation of the universe, stars, gods, demons and all things living.

The world is born and destroyed again and again. One day of the creator is one epoch. When he closes his eyes to sleep and rest, a great flood engulfs all the worlds he has created and erases it all.

He dreams up the next world and when he wakes up, he assigns a progenitor to recreate that world. Daksha was one such progenitor.

He gave his 27 daughters in marriage to Chandra, the moon god. Each one of them is a lunar mansion..or part of what we see as a constellation of star in the night sky. The moon visits each one of them every night. That’s why the lunar calender month is 27. There is also a 28th sister who disappeared.

The third daughter is Krittika whose mythology is tied to pleiades. The story goes that Agni, the fire god was the representative of all the gods in heaven. When anyone made a sacrifice, it had to be made to agni who will take it to the heavens and distribute it to all the other gods.

All sacrifices to gods were shared amongst them all and the blessings from the gods will be divided equally amongst those who made the sacrifices. They were consigned to the flames of agni and agni ate up the sacrifices.

Agni was beautiful and resplendent. He was also single and because of his nature coveted everything and ate everything. Every epoch has Seven Sages. They were the ones who represented humans and made sacrifices on their behalf.

The Seven Sages each had a wife. And Agni coveted them all. His flames of desire leapt higher and higher at the sacrifices as he wanted the seven wives for himself. There is also a verse in the vedas that says Agni is the fire with seven tongues. seven flames.

Unbeknownst to Agni, one other daughter of Daksha was infatuated with him. She watched him with unblinking eyes as his flames danced for the seven pious wives of the sages. The desire he could never reach. Just like her...because he didn’t even notice her.

Her name was Swaha. Being a celestial herself, she had the power to shape shift. So one day, she changed her form to resemble the first of the wives. Agni was delighted. They snuck to a celestial magical grove and had a jolly good time. The next day, Swaha took the form of the second wife and went back to their love nest. And again and again. She has taken the form of all six of wives. But try as she might..she couldn’t transform into the seventh one.

Anusuya..the wife was Sage Atri was so chaste that even by sleight of hand and in someone’s imagination, she couldn’t be seen as the illicit lover of a man who wasn’t her husband.

So now the secret was out. Swaha was reprimanded and Agni is now smitten with Swaha. But the lovers are together now. The alter egos Swaha created were left behind in the celestial grove but because they can’t wander in a world where the real wives existed, they were prisoners inside the glorious celestial grove.

Swaha didn’t trust Agni still and insisted that she will be present too at all sacrifices made to agni henceforth so he wasn’t making side eyes at the sages wives. She becomes the gaping mouth of agni who will swallow all the sacrifices. That’s why..even today..all sacrificial fires are fed with incantations that end with ‘swaha’. It is not a sacrifice if Swaha isn’t present.

Meanwhile the six shadow wives live in the grove called Saravana.(sara = thicket of reeds. vana = grove/forest. it was a forest with lakes and a lot of water bodies with thickets of reeds) Shiva and Parvati start visiting it for their love making. Their lovemaking created a spark so bright and hot that it couldn’t be contained in any of the worlds. It was dropped in the cooling waters of Sara Vana. There the krittikas each picked a piece of it and raised them as six babies. When the children were old enough, they merged as one. With six heads and twelve arms to become the warrior god, Muruga aka Kartikeya. The one who came from the krittikas.

The sisters feel that they have nothing else to do and ask that they become stars in the heavens. So muruga flings them into the skies and they become the pleiades cluster. They become one. They are now known as Krittika.

Many snapshot predictions are possible when krittika star is present in astrological chart. The mythology helps me remember them. Without going into details, Elon musk..for example..has a prominent Krittika. And the snapshot techniques archetype fits perfectly. There are many examples.

Tesla, for example..has a moderately similar chart to Elon Musk(and so it was a neat coincidence his star company is called Tesla..they share the same Birth date too altho diff years.)..but it shifts by one nakshatra pada which took his life in an entirely different direction even though they shared ascendents.

I like to think that we are all living in a simulation. And I would very much like astrology to be the code that hacks it. But who knows? I am just reading and learning for now. I don’t know exactly what astrology is but I am certainly not dismissive of it anymore.

Anyways..that’s the Krittika/Pleiades myth in Indian mythology.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

idk about you but when i look at it I see 6. been trying to spot #7, no luck so far.

Do you live in the middle of nowhere, far away from any light pollution? If not, your inability to see more than 6 means nothing about what someone 2000 years ago would have been able to see.

no matter where I am, if i have the night sky, I check for Pleiades and take note of how many I can see. sometimes it's fewer than 6 depending on light pollution, but I have never been able to see 7, even on nights in deeply rural areas where the milky way is stunningly bright and clear.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh, I have that same pet theory.

And same. I believe there's also a theory that the neanderthals were smarter than our ancestors of the time. That would also fit the story. I can imagine the homo sapiens of the time interacting with the far stronger and smarter neanderthals and describing them as 'sons of god'. I wonder if that's also where the old Greek myths of Hercules (etc) came from.

AFAICT, the Greek pantheon (Hercules etc) is commonly assumed to belong to a religious belief system that in large part aligns with the spread of the Indo-European language, probably (maybe) originating with the Yamnaya culture on the Pontic steppe north of the Black sea according to what is called the Kurgan hypothesis [0][1].

The culture and language seems to have spread across large parts of the Indo-European landmass starting maybe 6000 years ago, eventually displacing many older European and Indian cultures respectively among others. It is assumed to be the reason that such disparate pantheons as the Roman, Greek, Norse and Hindu have many common characteristics. One reason for the relative swift and wide spread of the culture is currently speculated to be that the Yamnaya were the first to domesticate the horse and use them to pull wagons (chariots).[2]

While it could be possible that the original pantheon referred to Neanderthals a more rational interpretation seems to me to be that the pantheon is a deified memory of some prominent people in a small group that roamed the plains of present Ukraine many thousands of years ago, a group that came to conquer other groups because of their advanced horsemanship, establishing traditions that in turn achieved a life of their own as traditions and beliefs commonly do. But hey, it is little more than speculation at this point.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_mythology

[2] https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180509185446.h...

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#127
post #58

The Pleiades[1], also known as the Seven Sisters: > It is among the star clusters nearest to Earth... and is the cluster most obvious to the naked eye in the night sky. Only six stars in the cluster are visible to the naked eye yet mythology from several ancient cultures share the idea that one of the seven “sisters" is hidden. The article The world’s oldest story? , originally published in TheConversation [2], state…

Wait a second, this doesn't sound right. According to your wikipedia link, the "Seven Sisters" constellation actually has 9 stars (named after the 7 sisters + parents). They are all visible with the naked eye.

The abstract of the preprint [1] starts:

> There are two puzzles surrounding the Pleiades, or Seven Sisters. First, why are the mythological stories surrounding them, typically involving seven young girls being chased by a man associated with the constellation Orion, so similar in vastly separated cultures, such as the Australian Aboriginal cultures and Greek mythology? Second, why do most cultures call them “Seven Sisters" even though most people with good eyesight see only six stars?

Most people see six bright stars, like those depicted in the Subaru logo. Yet, you are quite correct to point out that the overlapping stars in question, Atlas and Pleione, are named after the parents of the seven sisters in Greek mythology. Six-vs-Seven or Eight-vs-Nine are valid criticisms and raise the question of when the names of the stars were first used.

The narrative-based approach is imprecise but, like Historical Linguistics [2], it might be useful in identifying origins and connectedness. Regardless, knowing that the bright stars Atlas and Pleione were separated in the past is a useful fact for generating and testing hypotheses.

[1] https://www.dropbox.com/s/np0n4v72bdl37gr/sevensisters.pdf?d...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_linguistics

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#128
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might not be quite as outlandish as it sounds, because we now have plenty of evidence that early humans were living alongside and interacting with other archaic homo species. I have a pet (similarly highly speculative) theory that the Nephilim[1] of the Bible might be a earlier oral history of Neanderthals. But I'll just leave it at that, speculation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

Trolls, in Scandinavian folklore, also fit the profile of neanderthals: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll

How so?

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#129

> ... May Reach Back 100k Years Or may not. One important fact: people get accolades and sometimes even direct monetary incentives for finding something that is supposedly "oldest of". Nobody gets famous or rich by revising "oldest of" dates to a more recent timeline.

You miss the point.

They could as easily have been seven geese, seven pebbles, seven lakes, seven boats, seven eyes, seven villages, seven brothers... But they are almost everywhere, instead, seven sisters, across ten thousand miles and fifty millennia.

If the story is not that old, how did they so frequently turn out sisters? Morphic resonance? Without, you are left with nothing but a mystery. Citing a common tradition draws on the least far-fetched explanation, as science demands.

The same applies to stenciled handprints on cave walls from Spain to Sulawesi, and as many millennia.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#130

Sure Pleione and Atlas used to be a little farther apart, but Maia and Taygeta are were also closer together according to their chart. Why could they tell the latter apart when we can’t tell the former?

I am sorry to say you might have to go read the linked paper, where this is discussed. The upshot is, visually distinguishing two stars is a function of both their proximity and relative brightness. https://www.dropbox.com/s/np0n4v72bdl37gr/sevensisters.pdf?d...

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