‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years • Hacker News Board

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#91

Post by joshuaissac » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #46

neiman wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also live in the EU, but the EU did not invented universities, and hence whichever bureaucratic definition it made up, shouldn't be used as a measure for universities outside the EU.

Universities were invented in medieval Europe and, to my knowledge, they were always supported by ruling authorities, be them kings, emperors or popes, who granted them their legitimacy. Of course a sovereign country can define (or refrain from defining) a university in any way they like, but the historical argument really doesn't help much there. The historical notion of a university is very much tied to ruling powe…

The earliest universities were in Asia and Africa,[1] evolving from madrasas founded by religious patrons, similar to how early European universities evolved from monastic schools.

1. https://www.britannica.com/topic/university

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#92

Post by tiagod » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

credit_guy wrote: post #90

sradman wrote: post #58

The Pleiades[1], also known as the Seven Sisters: > It is among the star clusters nearest to Earth... and is the cluster most obvious to the naked eye in the night sky. Only six stars in the cluster are visible to the naked eye yet mythology from several ancient cultures share the idea that one of the seven “sisters" is hidden. The article The world’s oldest story? , originally published in TheConversation [2], state…

Wait a second, this doesn't sound right. According to your wikipedia link, the "Seven Sisters" constellation actually has 9 stars (named after the 7 sisters + parents). They are all visible with the naked eye.

The pleiades are a cluster, not a constellation.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#93

Post by Bakary » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

sundarurfriend wrote: post #44

This reminded me of a theory came up with as a teenager, that the Vaanaraas of Ramayana (a group to which the famous "monkey god" Hanuman belongs) may actually be an early hominid that had ape-like features, that lived in parallel with humans in different territory. They were intelligent enough to help the human princes in their quest, which got them a place in their story - a story which went on to become an oral tr…

I don't think this theory is outlandish, just speculative. That said, given that language itself tends to be hopelessly distorted at such a time-scale there are some significant obstacles to oral histories not getting completely distorted to the point where no original content remains.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#94

Post by 74d-fe6-2c6 » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 2:48 PM UTC

scatters wrote: post #87

74d-fe6-2c6 wrote: post #38

fascinating - but I can't make out those three stars in a row (the guys sitting in the boat) from the constellation depicted below. Neither for 2020 nor 100'000 BCE. Also not from Stellarium. Weird.

Orion's Belt? It's one of the most recognizable constellations (or parts thereof).

true - the canoe is interpreted into orion - my mistake

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#95

Post by tsimionescu » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

ramraj07 wrote: post #41

mellosouls wrote: post #27

It's a nice theory but sometimes simpler, less glamorous solutions might hold the truth. There are more than 6 "sisters" visible with the naked eye, but most people normally can't see them. It's more believable to me that the "missing" 7th sister is just the brightest of the less visible ones. Those less visible would certainly have been used as a test of prowess for determining the keenest-eyed, especially among ear…

If true then at least one of the stories should sound in that vein right? Let's consider your rule itself, though first modifying it to the real occams razor which says the simplest answer is probably the real one. Simple is probably more measurable than glamor anyway! So what's the simpler of the two explanations? A complex variation of the story as we now know independently arose in multiple cultures and then every…

Actually the second version seems to make more novel assumptions. We have no (other?) proof of any cultural phenomenon older than maybe 50k years ago even existing, never mind being passed on. To imagine such a specific story surviving for such a huge amount of time while being disconnected from reality seems MUCH more unlikely than having similar stories arise independently about a hard to see but still visible star.

Also, Occam's razor says nothing about which explanation is more likely to be correct. It is simply a sensible rule about which explanation is more useful to go with when you have two that explain the same facts equally well. It's a pretty clear rule in physics when you have actual mathematical models to chose between, it's much too hand-wavy in the soft sciences like anthropology.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#96

Post by generalizations » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

EdwardDiego wrote: post #84

tikwidd wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might not be quite as outlandish as it sounds, because we now have plenty of evidence that early humans were living alongside and interacting with other archaic homo species. I have a pet (similarly highly speculative) theory that the Nephilim[1] of the Bible might be a earlier oral history of Neanderthals. But I'll just leave it at that, speculation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

Huh, I have that same pet theory.

And same.

I believe there's also a theory that the neanderthals were smarter than our ancestors of the time. That would also fit the story. I can imagine the homo sapiens of the time interacting with the far stronger and smarter neanderthals and describing them as 'sons of god'. I wonder if that's also where the old Greek myths of Hercules (etc) came from.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#97

Post by iamsb » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:07 PM UTC

sundarurfriend wrote: post #44

This reminded me of a theory came up with as a teenager, that the Vaanaraas of Ramayana (a group to which the famous "monkey god" Hanuman belongs) may actually be an early hominid that had ape-like features, that lived in parallel with humans in different territory. They were intelligent enough to help the human princes in their quest, which got them a place in their story - a story which went on to become an oral tr…

Interesting but I doubt it. Vaanaras do not appear prominently in any of epics/puranas following Ramayana. Only Hanuman is present in Mahabharata and he is clearly living a solitary life when he meets Bheem.

By no means expert, so happy to be proven wrong.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#98

Post by yreg » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #29

yreg wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We had a very kid-friendly book of ancient Greek myths[0] as part of mandatory reading (actually one of the first books I've read) and it includes this story. It's a great way of learning — basically a fairy tale compilation, but the fairy tales are worthy of learning about. Also, the reader learns much about the historical setting. Would be amazing to write/popularize similar books on other cultures as well. Perhaps…

> Perhaps the Judge Di series[1] about an 18th century Chinese detective No, the series is from the 18th century. Di Renjie lived in the 7th century.

You are right of course, thanks. I got a call as I was finishing my comment and didn't pay enough attention to what I'm typing.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#99

Post by SkittyDog » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:22 PM UTC

tiagod wrote: post #92

credit_guy wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a second, this doesn't sound right. According to your wikipedia link, the "Seven Sisters" constellation actually has 9 stars (named after the 7 sisters + parents). They are all visible with the naked eye.

The pleiades are a cluster, not a constellation.

From the WP article, under "Folklore and Mythology": "Some Greek astronomers considered them to be a distinct constellation, and they are mentioned by Hesiod's Works and Day..." (emphasis mine) So it would appear that they are both. FWIW, I have no idea if there is some astronomical technical jargon distinction between "constellation" and "cluster" that inspires your comment. But to this layman, your correction comes across as pedantix and unnecessary. The term "constellation" is clearly valid, here, as common everyday English is spoken.

Re: ‘Seven Sisters’ Myths May Reach Back 100k Years

#100

Post by JohnJamesRambo » Sun, Jan 17, 2021, 3:34 PM UTC

heikkilevanto wrote: post #42

Seven is a common story-telling number. Seven days in a week, sailing the seven seas, the seven wonders of the world, the seven continents, seven deadly sins, etc.

It would be pretty odd to add one they couldn’t see though, right?