Live data from Hacker News

Toxic positivity does more harm than good

bloomberg.com

231–240 of 296 posts

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#231
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end, HOW you deliver feedback matters. Personally, I have three important characteristics for a feedback. Point 1 : "Be Specific". I can not stress this enough. Please point out specific observable behaviour. Point 2 : Frame feedback in terms of team/organisational goals. Every team has a purpose within the organisation. It's a team game and every team member should know the feedback in context of the team gam…

Completely agree that HOW matters so much! To me and probably many others (albeit often subconsciously), point 3 comes across as blaming, overly-generalized, and lacking in personal (and group) accountability for your experiences. What about something like, "Hey John, the last time you did X, Y happened, which had Z consequences. I felt { disappointed / let down / concerned / irritated / worried / angry / $whatever_e…

I used to see a therapist who told me to do that, and eventually I realized it was a bullshit idea and I should not be working on reframing my expectations of colleagues so I was OK with them actively lying about work, so I quit and it was fantastic.

You can try and change yourself to make things work, but it's not always the right or even healthy way to approach a problem.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#232
post #180

This has kind of been a problem at my workplace. Everything from the company's marketing material to its recruiting practices exudes an almost overwhelming amount of positivity. They put a huge emphasis on hiring "the nicest people in the world". Disagreements or arguments at the company are almost non-existent, because everyone tries their hardest to be positive and nice at all times. Every other sentence in Slack e…

I've been converted to using exclamation points after phrases like "thanks" in emails. The book Because Internet convinced me that the rules of email politeness have changed. I don't love it, but whatever. Language changes.

It's interesting how different the following four uses of "thanks" can come across, depending on the context:

thanks

Thanks.

Thanks

Thanks!

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#234

I've felt a lot of "false" positivity espoused by project managers, especially those in charge of agile ceremonies. Examples: "I'm really {proud,impressed} of all of you for your output this sprint", "You guys are {killing,crushing,owning} it", "You all should be very proud of what you guys did", etc. These aren't given after periods of crunch time, they're literally every week to the point where it feels so contrive…

I tend to see "toxic positivity" as an attempt to gaslight people, but with the presumption of good intentions, and that presumption of good intentions somehow washing away the deleterious effects of gaslighting people. Somewhat unsurprisingly it turns out it's the gaslighting that's the problem, not entirely the motivation for engaging in it. My experience has been that high-performing people gravitate toward being…

I don't think you said the word "gaslighting" enough times.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#235
post #230
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American in Europe : "Jesus, everyone here is so rude and cold." European in America : "Jesus, everyone here is so fake and annoying."

How do Europeans feel in Latin America? As a Latin American, I studied aboard in the US for a year, and I felt Americans were way colder than us. I wouldn’t say we’re fake about our warmness. But maybe Europeans could associate that with being fake?

As an America, I absolutely adore how friendly people are in the parts of Latin American I've been to. Is it fake or forced? It doesn't feel like it to me, but I barely speak the language, so I'm probably missing tons of subtext.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. Sometimes I work harder to compensate, some times I apologize. But then it’s my mistake so I can negotiate with myself. Sometimes working harder is warranted. Some salesperson screwed up, and it’s not really possible to reneg the multi million dollar contract. “I’m sorry guys, what can we do?”

FWIW, as the manager I don't feel I own the commitment date, the team does. That process has a 'content' aspect to it as well in the form, "by this date, this content, by this later date this additional content". But I understand the angst against managers who "manage up" promising impossible dates and "blaming down" when the dates aren't met. I learned early on as an individual contributor that "getting it in writin…

I think this works, but only in cases where two things are true:

- the team is actually responsible for the date—often, there's massive asymmetric pressure to aim for less time - if it's an actual deadline, the team has the autonomy to adjust scope to hit it

In my experience, the worst situations happen when estimates are treated like deadlines. An estimate has to have uncertainty. Without some way to manage uncertainty, you'd have to pad estimates out to like the 99th percentile to hit them consistently, but people read estimates as averages and push back against that. If teams are consistently going over estimates, it's a problem in how you do estimates, not how you're working. (Which is also why evaluating people's performance based on how well they hit estimates—which seems common on a lot of teams—is completely misguided. Estimating is a nice skill to have, but it matters far, far less than the quality of the work people actually do!)

On the other hand, a deadline is only a deadline if you're willing to adjust scope to hit it. If there is a real deadline and it looks like we might not hit it, the answer isn't "try to be more productive" (which is all that "work harder" actually means!). Instead, we should figure out how we can change what we're focusing on and what we're concretely building in order to still hit the underlying goal as well as possible with the time remaining. If we're working towards an estimate rather than a deadline, we might still adjust scope and focus, but the first step would be adjusting and sharing a new estimate.

But if the culture is that estimates are hard commitments and you can't adjust the scope or the timeline, the work environment is going to be absolutely miserable, people will get stressed out for no real reason and the quality of the work is going to suffer. People will do whatever it takes to technically achieve estimates, even if that means cutting corners everywhere, sweeping bugs under the carpet, not spending any time to iterate or improve on the system and indefinitely putting off engineering work that has a small cost now but gives a massive medium- to long-term benefit in productivity. A month or two into this process and you move towards a death march that burns everyone out and, on the time scale of months, accomplishes substantially less than a less aggressive approach would have.

I'm currently working with a team that has this problem to some extent—of course, the managers think of it as "accountability" and "a focus on delivery"—and in a bit over a year, they've built a codebase that already feels like a legacy mess, while accomplishing what would have been like eight months' worth of work with a better engineering approach. It's pretty frustrating to see and I'm trying to change things, but not sure whether I'm going about it effectively.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the linked article. There are a few important distinctions, most notably (from the article itself): > "We praise drawings ... because we want our kids to continue to work hard, and to do good work... But what we really want to teach our children... is that they should do good work because of the satisfactions it provides." While I understand how this could apply to children (i…

I think the case with children is the same as with adults. We don't raise children "to have fun". Some would say we raise children to have a meaningful life for the parent, and I would hope for the children as well, i.e. "to do good work" as you say. Like others have said, effect of praise would be very specific to individuals, but some have said praise hasn't helped them much. It definitely has not helped me, so her…

I would assume all this is highly specific to environment, just as much as the individual. Have you worked in an environment where nobody cares whether you do a good job, and success and quality are not recognized? You start to define your own success, which may be very different from what the business actually needs.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of insight in the parent comment here. Most importantly this: "...there seems to be two camps of people: those who want constant positive reinforcement and those who it completely has the opposite effect ..." If you are leading and or managing a team, one of the most important things you need to know are how do people want their feedback. My experience is that it varies from person to person (I suspect that the…

“We need to work harder” is not the kind of manager I like. The best ones just set a great example and work harder and put in overtime themselves and the rest of the team are usually are sympathetic enough to follow.

Pretty sure the best answer is to do both. You need to ask your teammates to help if it's really important.

Re: Toxic positivity does more harm than good

#240

I've felt a lot of "false" positivity espoused by project managers, especially those in charge of agile ceremonies. Examples: "I'm really {proud,impressed} of all of you for your output this sprint", "You guys are {killing,crushing,owning} it", "You all should be very proud of what you guys did", etc. These aren't given after periods of crunch time, they're literally every week to the point where it feels so contrive…

I started DuoLingo recently (for Latin) and the over-the-top cheerleading there is driving me nuts.

It's a casual game. So they give you all this feedback all the time. If you got lingots for it it would be slightly better, becuase then it is no longer empty praise, but they don't want to give away those.
Post reply on HN