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Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

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Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#151

Post by Twirrim »

freedomben wrote: post #20

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

> I am not saying Google is acting with malice (I don't believe they are personally)

I'd agree. The problem is there is no financial or regulatory incentive to do the right thing here.

It has zero immediate impact on their bottom line to have things work in the current fashion, and the longer term damage to their reputation etc. is much harder to quantify.

There's no incentive for them to fix this, so why would they?

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#152

Post by rjkershner »

kyledrake wrote: post #116

I run https://neocities.org , and safe browsing has been my nightmare overlord for a long time. No way to manage reports via an API, no way to contact support. I haven't even been able to find a suggestions box, even that would be an upgrade here. Digging to find "the wizard" gets you into some official google "community support" forum where you learn the forum is actually run by a non-employee lawful neutral that wa…

Just want to add that neocities is a cultural treasure and I appreciate the work you put into it! I'm sad to hear that Google "Safe" Browsing once again rears it's ugly head blocking legitimate websites, yet I still see scams and phishing show up on ad sponsored links for Google search results.

I could foresee in the future all of us having to pay the toll so our hosted websites are considered "safe" too...

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#153

Post by masswerk »

ptero wrote: post #26

This is not new; such things happened many times in the past (25 years ago Microsoft was the behemoth trampling small companies) and will happen again. I do not think Google is doing it consciously -- this is probably just collateral damage from some bot or rule. The way to handle it is to reduce dependencies on the cloud. This does not mean cutting cloud services altogether, but once the company is big enough (and t…

> this is probably just collateral damage from some bot or rule

The point is, collateral damage and/or false positives are not acceptable for a service with an impact like this. In the real world, we consider them war crimes, etc. Bots and rules are implementations of policies and policies come with responsibility.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#154

Post by gomox »

scarface74 wrote: post #137

Am I missing something? Is there ever a reason to expose a CloudFront url to the end user instead of using a custom domain?

Is there a problem with doing it? I don't see how that would have helped in this case (if anything, it might have made things worse if Google decided to ban the 1st level domain, which they certainly won't do for Cloudfront.net).

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#155

Post by ilaksh »

My idea, which will be ignored as usual, is that the problem is the monopoly.

The reason we have a monopoly is because the web browser is now a full operating system that is so complicated that no group can replicate it.

Start over with a new protocol. Make it content-centric, i.e. distributed protocols with no central servers. Support download-limited lightweight markdown sites for information sharing.

Then for applications and interactive content, add a canvas-light graphics system to web assembly. Again, I suggest limiting download size to keep things snappy. And make sure not to load any applications automatically or put them in the same process as the markdown browser.

If you do it right, you will have a common protocol that is straightforward enough that there can actually be several implementations. And it won't be controlled by one company.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#156

Post by rcoveson »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #25
hirundo wrote: post #8

Is there any reason that Google couldn't, or wouldn't, repurpose Google Safe Browsing to blacklist sites that are "unsafe" due to under- or poorly moderated content? E.g. doing this to Parler after they find hosting again? I can't think of a reliable one.

There's a very obvious reason not to do that: if you apparently maliciously cry wolf a few times, people won't trust your cries any more, and, for example, other browsers might choose to stop using the Google Safe Browsing list.

No, I don't think that's how it would play out.

1. Google bans parler.com on Jan. 8th by adding it as an "unsafe URL" to their blacklist.

2. Mozilla issues statement: "While we don't believe it was prudent to use the Safe Browsing blacklist for this purpose, given recent events, we will not be unblocking parler.com, and do not currently deem it necessary to maintain a separate safe browsing list."

3. Something similar happens a few months from now, and this time there's no statement from Mozilla or Microsoft. It has now become accepted that blacklisting less-moderated social media, which can cause real-world harm, is a normal use for the Safe Browsing list.

The problem is, if a mainstream browser goes against the flow, it becomes "The Nazi Browser." Its market share was already less than Chrome's, and now it's getting all these new users who are outcasts. This is a Hard Problem of moderation in a small market. You can't be the one out of three players who moderates less, lest you be overwhelmed by undesirables and less-desirables.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#157

Post by DanBC »

fortran77 wrote: post #31

The story he links to, about the "Online Slang Dictionary" being removed from google search because the founder of Urban Dictionary was friends with googlers (true) and (allegedly) used his influence is fascinating: http://onlineslangdictionary.com/pages/google-panda-penalty/

You may want to read these posts:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9977372

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5419890

And this too:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24109168

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#158

Post by lol768 »

kyledrake wrote: post #116

I run https://neocities.org , and safe browsing has been my nightmare overlord for a long time. No way to manage reports via an API, no way to contact support. I haven't even been able to find a suggestions box, even that would be an upgrade here. Digging to find "the wizard" gets you into some official google "community support" forum where you learn the forum is actually run by a non-employee lawful neutral that wa…

> because we block uploads of executable files, it is _literally impossible for users to host malware on our servers_

How does this stop bad actors from exploiting bugs in e.g. V8 with malicious JavaScript?

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#159

Post by hedora »

heybrendan wrote: post #29

Can anyone "in the know" objectively comment if Google Safe Browsing (GSB) has had a net positive result or outcome for the Internet, at large? Has GSB helped users, more than it has hurt them? The anti-Google rhetoric [on HN] is becoming more tiresome as of late. Personally, I welcome the notifications in my browsers that a domain is unsafe. I can't possibly be the only one.

It seems similar to the move from client side spam filters to the server side.

Spam filtering really didn’t get better with the change (for me), but now it’s orders of magnitude harder to run an email server.

Taking the article at face value, GSB makes it much harder to run a reliable web site. Has centralization of email into surveillance organizations hurt more than the benefit from saving bandwidth to download spams, and automatically deleting them at the client?

How much damage will (further) centralization of web hosting onto social network sites (Facebook, Twitter, GitHub, Stack Exchange, etc, etc.) hurt the internet?

It’s arguably already done more harm than good. I can’t even find a decent recipe that a high end laptop can efficiently display. I used to be able to download cookbooks worth of recipes, and my 386 could load them instantly.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#160

Post by laurent92 »

Pulcinella wrote: post #53

I wonder if it would be faster to deal with this through legal. I’m not a lawyer, but I wonder if you could send a C&D to Google legal or something because this seems like an actual case of slander and reputation damage.

Once you enter litigation with Google, good luck accessing your Android.

You may believe this is extreme, but many people have had their Gmail account suspended without known reason. So if they also have a reason...

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