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Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

gomox.medium.com

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Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#51

Post by qwantim1 »

freedomben wrote: post #20

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

> nobody in power at Google cares

My assessment might be “nobody in power has time to prevent the myriad of problems happening all of the time, even though they handle the majority, with help from businesses, government agencies, etc., and given the huge impact of some problems to society as a whole, they may feel as though they’re rising in the front seat of a roller coaster, unaware of your single voice among billions from the ground down below.”

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#54

Post by fakedang »

freedomben wrote: post #39
gomox wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. I don't think it's malice on their part, but their hammer is too big to be wielded so carelessly.

Yes I agree with you (and thank you for your medium post by the way. Our only chance of ever improving the situation is to call attention to it. I fully believe Google leadership has to be aware of it at this point, but it clearly won't be a priority to them to fix until the public backlash/pressure is great enough that they have to). Just to avoid any misreading, I didn't say I thought it was malice on Google's part…

I do not trust management folks, whose paychecks and promotions are dependent on how successful such hostile actions are, to take the right decisions. I also do not think that they are deliberately ignorant/indifferent or that calling attention to it will do any good. These types of individuals got to where they are largely by knowing fully well that their actions are malicious and legal. I used to work under such people, and currently interact with and work with such people on a very regular basis (you could even consider me as part of them tbh). It is very much possible that the management level folks at Google don't have an ounce of goodness in them, and will always see such decisions from a zero-sum perspective.

To make it relatable, do you care so much for a mosquito if it's buzzing around you, disrupting your work and taking a toll on your patience? Because your SaaS is a mosquito to Google. After a certain point, you will want to kill the mosquito, and that's exactly what Google execs think so as to get to their next paycheck.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#55

Post by heipei »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #25
hirundo wrote: post #8

Is there any reason that Google couldn't, or wouldn't, repurpose Google Safe Browsing to blacklist sites that are "unsafe" due to under- or poorly moderated content? E.g. doing this to Parler after they find hosting again? I can't think of a reliable one.

There's a very obvious reason not to do that: if you apparently maliciously cry wolf a few times, people won't trust your cries any more, and, for example, other browsers might choose to stop using the Google Safe Browsing list.

So what would they use instead? It's not like there are any other free, real-time and mostly accurate malicious-URL databases around for people to plug into their browsers and products.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#56

Post by cyral »

CPLX wrote: post #4

Maybe there should be a law that any business that has over ten billion dollars in annual revenues has to answer the phone when you call them and have a reasonable resolution process for complaints. If that ruins your business model, cool. Just spin off parts of the business until each one is back under ten billion in revenue and do whatever you want.

Ideally, we would be able to choose the best company, such as the one that does answer their phones. In this case we can't, which is the real problem.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#57

Post by 0x426577617265 »

sethherr wrote: post #10

I think another take away from this article is “don’t allow users to upload malicious files that you then host from your domain” This seems easier to do than jumping domains.

I think the author highlights the main issue at the end of the article. This is where pressure needs to be applied. I get it, Google’s process probably protects a lot of end users from malicious sites. Getting a real business added to this blocklist by a bot though is not cool. Perhaps a process to whitelist your own domains if this power can’t be wrangled from Google.

> Google literally controls who can access your website, no matter where and how you operate it. With Chrome having around 70% market share, and both Firefox and Safari using the GSB database to some extent, Google can with a flick of a bit singlehandedly make any site virtually inaccessible on the Internet.

> This is an extraordinary amount of power, and one that is not suitable for Google's "an AI will review your problem when and if it finds it convenient to do so" approach.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#58

Post by jdsalaro »

freedomben wrote: post #44
jdsalaro wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" and all that, but after the events and the almost perfectly orchestrated behavior we've seen in the past and last couple of weeks it's becoming increasingly difficult, at least to me, to not attribute this to malice. Probably deliberate negligence is a better term. They know their systems can make mistakes, of course they do, and yet they bui…

Thanks, I totally agree. Just to be clear I'm not saying it's malice as I don't believe that. I'm just saying the end result is the same so one should consider them a hostile actor for purposes of threat modeling. Given you're the second person who I think took away that I was accusing them of malice, I probably need to reword my post a bit to reduce confusion. Accusing them of malice is irresponsible without evidenc…

> Thanks, I totally agree. Just to be clear I'm not saying it's malice as I don't believe that. I'm just saying the end result is the same so one should consider them a hostile actor for purposes of threat modeling.

No worries at all! I interpreted your post the way you intended; and I agree fully being also in InfoSec.

Going by how you phrased your original post, you're probably more patient and/or well-intentioned than me as I'm farther along the path of attributing mistakes by big, powerful corporations to malice right away.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#59

Post by alisonkisk »

TazeTSchnitzel wrote: post #25
hirundo wrote: post #8

Is there any reason that Google couldn't, or wouldn't, repurpose Google Safe Browsing to blacklist sites that are "unsafe" due to under- or poorly moderated content? E.g. doing this to Parler after they find hosting again? I can't think of a reliable one.

There's a very obvious reason not to do that: if you apparently maliciously cry wolf a few times, people won't trust your cries any more, and, for example, other browsers might choose to stop using the Google Safe Browsing list.

What other browsers? Almost all users of SB are using Chrome.

Re: Google Safe Browsing can kill a startup

#60

Post by lucasverra »

gomox wrote: post #23
freedomben wrote: post #20

After years of seeing developments like this, getting worse and worse, it fills me with rage to think about how clearly nobody in power at Google cares. I naively used to think, "they probably don't realize what's happening and will fix it." I always try to give benefit of the doubt, especially having been on the other side so many times and seeing how 9 times out of 10 it's not malice, just incompetence, apathy, or…

Author here. I don't think it's malice on their part, but their hammer is too big to be wielded so carelessly.

Agree, we can only vote with our clicks.

Sadly gmail and google docs are top notch products :(

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