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Why cancer cells waste so much energy

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Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#171
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wish people were more aware of how common pre-cancer cells are. Generally speaking, there are about eight major functional changes in the cell needed to go from 'cell' to 'cancer cell', and on average, each takes about a decade to occur. When I first learned about this at the age of 20, I already had a bunch of cells that were 2/8 of the way to cancer, essentially. (Not counting mutations I was already born with…

> on a long enough timeline, every cell is a cancer cell. Not really true, except in the grandest sense (“humanity is the cancer of Earth”). Which brings up a really interesting question - how can our reproductive system be so good at removing/restoring the effects of cancer & ageing? Why is sperm quality dropping with age but the effect resets after conception?

Yikes

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The chicken embryo study is interesting but chlorine dioxide is already known to be less toxic to birds. And your other sources clearly state that chlorine dioxide and chlorites suppress thyrioid function and haematopoesis in primates and humans. Is that supposed to be a good thing? >Also, CDS is not MMS. Out of curiosity, do you acidify the ClO2 solution before quaffing it? It's a ritual very well associated with MM…

The results in monkeys seem to suppress thyroid function, but: > No evidence of thyroid effects were detected in the serum of human volunteers who ingested approximately 1 mg/l. of ClO2 in drinking water as a result of routine use in the community water treatment process. I don't acidify the ClO2 solution.

You are conflating very low background exposure to delibrate self-medication with a much larger dose. The latter act has a proven risk for no apparent gain, hence my doubts.

I'm not a doctor but have a background in biomedical research. Just to point out that there are countless fringe medical theories and therapies out there with varying degrees of anecdotal and scientific evidence backing them up. However it's quite telling that many claim the same benefits whilst instructing people to do the exact opposite things. Even the more promising ones (resveratrol and fructose toxicity are the ones I have actually spent time working on) eventually turned out to be nothing but wishful thinking and sometimes just bad science. I wish you the best of health but at the end of the day, what seems to have worked for you does not mean that it will work for everybody else.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#173
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most animals (actually not only the animals but most eukaryotic cells) can produce energy (in the form of ATP) by transforming glucose into lactic acid, exactly like in the lactic fermentation of milk into yogurt. (Some animals and some other eukaryotic organisms use other fermentation variants, e.g. alcoholic fermentation by yeasts or fermentation of glucose + water into acetic acid + carbon dioxide + dihydrogen in…

Thank you very much. That explanation really helps and has me off reading more!

That is quite a phenomenal explanation.

Just to reiterate one key part for your question, all of the energy systems (ATP hydrolysis, phosphocreatine hydrolysis, glucose fermentation and finally glucose & fat oxidation) can produce energy in tandem and/or independently in muscle and other cells. But, first listed higher power systems are depleted within minutes and require expense of other systems to "recharge" (supercapacitor analogy) vs. glucose & fat oxidation can pretty much carry on constantly but are much lower power due to slower speed/higher complexity of their pathways (rather than just a battery I'd say an analogy of renewable energy [glucose] + battery storage [lipids in adipose] is more suitable i.e. steady input of energy source = steady utilization/output of work that can carry on pretty much constantly).

So, many systems can produce energy together/in tandem in the cells, but the higher power systems once exhausted can force your body to temporarily cease high intensity activity to rest and recover. Glucose and fat oxidation don't ever stop in that process, but in recovering those higher power systems your body prevents you from engaging in more high energy "burst" activities until those systems "recharge".

Training can allow you to modify these higher power systems to last longer, and recover quicker, but there will always be a top end constraint where every person "runs out of gas" when performing continuous high intensity/exertion activity.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you were a cancer researcher in a previous life, may I ask you a question I thought of commenting on another's comment? If cancer cells have high metabolic requirements, couldn't you attack them by: 1. lowering the caloric intake of the patient 2. Making the glucose the patient intakes mildly radioactive, say with a beta or an alpha emitter [1]. As the patient is strictly kept on a low caloric diet, the radioac…

Great questions. 1. We do attempt to attack cancers by reducing their available energy. That's why, at one point, a major field of research in cancer therapeutics was interfering with angiogenesis, because cancers will secrete messengers that help grow them dedicated (if crappy, low-quality) blood vessels. The issue with "starving" them more starkly is that they're very good at getting a share (e.g., forcing the body…

Yeah, I guess we’re just a chimera colony of related organisms.

My IMHO, is that the only real cure to this disease(s) will be learning how to disrupt its immune response evasion tricks.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms, and that cancer basically represents an unwanted return to our genetic roots; multicellular organisms used to be single cell organisms a billion years ago and the original genes might carry on within our DNA until today. But they should be switched off. Once they are switched on, the cells will stop coop…

> There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms, and that cancer basically represents an unwanted return to our genetic roots It's not close to even 'relatively' being new. I was giving cancer talks that made mention of it back when I worked in cancer bio, just about 16 years ago now. I didn't come up with it, and it wasn't new then. I used it in tal…

What's your opinion on Thomas Seyfried theory on metabolic reasons, mitochondria malfunction, glucose and glutamine control, and such?

He also mentions this "atavistic" view, but it is not central in his theory.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since you were a cancer researcher in a previous life, may I ask you a question I thought of commenting on another's comment? If cancer cells have high metabolic requirements, couldn't you attack them by: 1. lowering the caloric intake of the patient 2. Making the glucose the patient intakes mildly radioactive, say with a beta or an alpha emitter [1]. As the patient is strictly kept on a low caloric diet, the radioac…

There is a very interesting book around the metabolic route for treating cancer. It's called "Starving cancer" by Jane McLelland. It talks about using over the counter drugs and supplements that have been studied for their metabolic blocking properties for cancer, as well as changing the diet to reduce as much as possible the nutrients that cancer craves the most according to their metabolic phenotype. Most of the ti…

Hi - as the person you replied to noted, you were a cancer researcher. I recently had a much beloved dog lose her fight with cancer (specifically, she had mass cell tumors that started on her leg and grew). All of her oncologists (we spent close to ten thousand dollars keeping her as healthy and happy for as long as we could) kept telling us that mass cell tumors in dogs are "very nasty" and pretty much told us on the outset that even amputating her leg probably wouldn't save her. So my question is, what about mass cell tumors makes them nasty and, as a follow up question, why is it that the tumors became resistant to each line of treatment that we used? We went through I think 6 different drugs until we ran out of options, and then kept her on prednisone for about a year to keep the growth slowed down until she started showing signs of declining.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wish people were more aware of how common pre-cancer cells are. Generally speaking, there are about eight major functional changes in the cell needed to go from 'cell' to 'cancer cell', and on average, each takes about a decade to occur. When I first learned about this at the age of 20, I already had a bunch of cells that were 2/8 of the way to cancer, essentially. (Not counting mutations I was already born with…

", there are about eight major functional changes in the cell needed to go from 'cell' to 'cancer cell'" Can you summarize them, if you haven't done so elsewhere? Anyway thanks. And you should consider writing a book about it ..

Sure!

So, this is just a conceptual schema, and not a hard-and-fast rule. It was first published by Robert A. Weinberg in 2000 as "the six hallmarks of cancer", as an attempt to distill down everything we knew about cancer genesis into something we could understand as a model. He's considered the grand high poobah of oncogenetics. There've been people fretting at the details of his model since then, so it's grown a bit.

Also worth noting that this model was basically built on solid tumors. Liquid cancer (cancers of the blood - e.g., leukemia) have a different, more poorly studied path, though the broad brush-strokes seem to be the same.

The original model was: -Evading apoptosis -Self-sufficiency in growth signals -Ignoring anti growth signals -Autonomous, ongoing angiogenesis -Tissue invasion -Limitless replicative potential

The version that I learned in grad school was up to 8 hallmarks. Apparently it's evolved a bit more since then, and the most recent version being bandied about is:

-Evading apoptosis -Self-sufficiency in growth signals -Ignoring anti-growth signals -Autonomous, ongoing angiogenesis -Tissue invasion -Limitless replicative potential -Avoiding immune destruction -Tumor-promoting inflammation -Genome instability and mutation -Deregulated cellular energy metabolism

Honestly, I'm not sure the ten hallmark model really adds anything - I'd argue that the four additions fall neatly under the old six. But whatever - it's just a model, and doesn't change the granular reality at all.

To summarize each of the hallmarks in brief:

(1) Evading Apoptosis. Cells have a number of mechanisms that basically say "something's off here, I should kill myself now."

For instance, when DNA repair enzymes get upregulated, so does p53 - if p53 tips over a key value, it starts setting off the suicide pathway. So, "too much DNA damage" = "cell offs itself rather than propagating damaged DNA." There are actually a bunch of proteins in the cell see-sawing here, in response to internal and external signals, and if the "kill yourself" signal tips the see-saw, the cell dies.

Pretty much any mutation in the cell suicide pathway predisposes to cancer. For instance, an extrinsic trigger of apoptosis is binding of what's called the FAS Ligand to the FAS Receptor (a big part of how immune cells regulate their own suicide, to prevent auto-immunity.) A mutation in FAS Ligand, or FAS Receptor, or anything downstream of them, will predispose to autoimmune disease and cancer.

Another one is the anti-apoptotic protein BCL-2, which you'll find overexpressed in something like half of all cancers.

Since cancer development triggers so many "kill me now!" signals, turning this pathway off is a hallmark of cancer development. The cancer will usually do so through a combination of over-expressing anti-apoptotic proteins, and under-expressing pro-apoptotic proteins.

Do we make use of this knowledge for therapy? Sure do. One therapy is a BCL-2 inhibitor, Venetoclax. Methotrexate, which slows down cell proliferation, also causes adenosine accumulation that can trigger apoptosis. These drugs have varied benefits: when you target the specific broken pathway in the cell, they're excellent (e.g., BCL-2 in CLL). Cancers are good at evolving around these therapies though, so they're not used as mono-therapy.

(2) Self sufficiency in growth signals. Normal cells don't just grow on a whim - they require signaling from cells around them and from distant parts of the body, to ensure things are kept regulated. Once a cell starts generating its own growth signals, though - like an army in revolt, giving its own orders - then you're on the path to cancer. This is one of the key mutations that gives rise to the "atavistic cell" description of cancer - they've thrown off their shackles, and become wild cells again! Well, not really - even wild cells are careful about when to expend the resources to proliferate. Bacteria commonly depend on their neighbors - using whats called quorum sensing molecules - to control their growth. Heedless, runaway growth is not the norm even in 'wild' cells.

(3) Ignoring anti-growth signals. Most everything in the cell is the process of see-saw balances: there are always signals pushing in each direction, compensating biochemical pathways, and shifting balances. Growth is no exception: how the cell acts is in response to a whole bunch of pro- and anti-growth signals, and most of the time it moves in the direction that they're pressured to by the consensus.

Well, if one of the hallmarks of cancer is like an army giving itself orders (independence from external growth signals), another is the active refusal to heed anti-growth signals (shutting down lines of communication with the Joint Chiefs of Staff). This may be because key anti-growth receptors are broken; it may be because something downstream of those receptors is broken. The key is, though, that between "I'll tell myself when to grow" and "I don't care what anyone else says to the contrary," the cell is now positioned to grow and grow and grow.

(4) Autonomous Angiogenesis.

Tissues need oxygen and nutrients and stuff. However, that stuff really only travels a tiny distance from the smallest blood vessels - capillaries - because it has to leave the capillaries via diffusion, and the time for something to travel by diffusion increases as the square of the distance. So, going 4mm will take 4x longer than going 2mm. Forget about feeding tissues 1cm away from a capillary - it's not happening. Usually, outside of embryogenesis, blood vessel construction is rare - it happens when a blood vessel is damaged, and it secretes growth signals to build a new vessel. (In fact, in a well regulated environment, this is often followed by signals to kill some of the new vessels, too - which is why a fresh scar is red and angry, but an old one is pale and avascular. The blood vessels that came in to supply immune cells and fibroblasts actually regress.)

So, anyway, here's our tumor - replicating like wild, if it can, not caring if it grows too far from a capillary. One of the consequences is rampant cell death. Tumors aren't healthy, they're usually riddled with dying cells. Another consequence is shifting to anaerobic metabolism - which, yay, don't need blood supply so much. But it's also massively less energy-efficient than oxygen, so any tumor cells that can make use of oxygen supply will tend to outreplicate those that can't.

So what happens? Almost inevitably, they start secreting stuff like VEGF (vascular endothelial growth factor) to grow their own blood vessels. These vessels are messy and leaky and prone to breaking, but they're so much better than nothing, and our tumor is off to the races.

Do we target angiogenesis in therapy? Yeah, there's a shit-ton of drugs that inhibit angiogenesis (you might have heard about bevacizumab a lot lately - we've also given it to Covid patients at high risk of hospitalization, since nothing in the body ever only has one effect).

I'll continue in another post; I'm not sure if HN has length limits.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#178
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a very interesting book around the metabolic route for treating cancer. It's called "Starving cancer" by Jane McLelland. It talks about using over the counter drugs and supplements that have been studied for their metabolic blocking properties for cancer, as well as changing the diet to reduce as much as possible the nutrients that cancer craves the most according to their metabolic phenotype. Most of the ti…

What is "cancer industry"?

It's a conspiracy theory saying that we know natural and effective cures to cancer, but those are ignored or shammed by Big Pharma and scientific world because they are conspiring to instead produce drugs that are costly and require taking for long periods of time because thats more profitable to them.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The results in monkeys seem to suppress thyroid function, but: > No evidence of thyroid effects were detected in the serum of human volunteers who ingested approximately 1 mg/l. of ClO2 in drinking water as a result of routine use in the community water treatment process. I don't acidify the ClO2 solution.

You are conflating very low background exposure to delibrate self-medication with a much larger dose. The latter act has a proven risk for no apparent gain, hence my doubts. I'm not a doctor but have a background in biomedical research. Just to point out that there are countless fringe medical theories and therapies out there with varying degrees of anecdotal and scientific evidence backing them up. However it's quit…

Thank you for spending the time to write so far and for wishing me good health. I really appreciate it. I could tell about your background in your writing.

> what seems to have work for you does not mean that it will work for everybody else.

I agree with you on this. I just hope there was more funding or incentives for scientists studying this which, so far, has helped me and many people I know.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#180
post #178
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is "cancer industry"?

It's a conspiracy theory saying that we know natural and effective cures to cancer, but those are ignored or shammed by Big Pharma and scientific world because they are conspiring to instead produce drugs that are costly and require taking for long periods of time because thats more profitable to them.

I didn't mean that. Simply, pharmaceutical companies don't have incentives to invest in drugs that they won't profit from. Expired patent drugs come off first on that list.
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