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Why cancer cells waste so much energy

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Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#11

Post by inglor_cz »

deskamess wrote: post #2

So the cancer cells went with the non-blocking, albeit slower algorithm. With aerobic, pipelines could get filled with ATP and end up blocking the essential NAD+. So the optimization was a loosely decoupled slower fermentation process over the faster aerobic process. Back pressure avoided and all that. So tempting to go with analogies we are familiar with.

There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms, and that cancer basically represents an unwanted return to our genetic roots; multicellular organisms used to be single cell organisms a billion years ago and the original genes might carry on within our DNA until today. But they should be switched off. Once they are switched on, the cells will stop cooperating with the rest of the tissue and start acting "selfishly", at others' expense.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5474827/

This is known as "atavistic theory of cancer" and it is rather controversial, there are people who utterly hate it, not least because the original authors are not specialists in cancer treatment.

Part of this theory is that cancer cells "cannot help but switch to the previous single-celled metabolism, very inefficient compared to ours".

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#13

Post by [deleted] »

inglor_cz wrote: post #11
deskamess wrote: post #2

So the cancer cells went with the non-blocking, albeit slower algorithm. With aerobic, pipelines could get filled with ATP and end up blocking the essential NAD+. So the optimization was a loosely decoupled slower fermentation process over the faster aerobic process. Back pressure avoided and all that. So tempting to go with analogies we are familiar with.

There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms, and that cancer basically represents an unwanted return to our genetic roots; multicellular organisms used to be single cell organisms a billion years ago and the original genes might carry on within our DNA until today. But they should be switched off. Once they are switched on, the cells will stop coop…

[deleted]

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#14

Post by im3w1l »

inglor_cz wrote: post #11
deskamess wrote: post #2

So the cancer cells went with the non-blocking, albeit slower algorithm. With aerobic, pipelines could get filled with ATP and end up blocking the essential NAD+. So the optimization was a loosely decoupled slower fermentation process over the faster aerobic process. Back pressure avoided and all that. So tempting to go with analogies we are familiar with.

There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms, and that cancer basically represents an unwanted return to our genetic roots; multicellular organisms used to be single cell organisms a billion years ago and the original genes might carry on within our DNA until today. But they should be switched off. Once they are switched on, the cells will stop coop…

> There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms,

This is the track they are on, but given how shortlived they are, they never get the chance to do much evolution. They only have time to learn a few tricks. Simple things like turning stuff of or up/downregulating existing systems. It's a strange step to "cannot help but switch to the previous single-celled metabolism, very inefficient compared to ours".

Theory in article seems much more likely.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#16

Post by layoutIfNeeded »

inglor_cz wrote: post #11
deskamess wrote: post #2

So the cancer cells went with the non-blocking, albeit slower algorithm. With aerobic, pipelines could get filled with ATP and end up blocking the essential NAD+. So the optimization was a loosely decoupled slower fermentation process over the faster aerobic process. Back pressure avoided and all that. So tempting to go with analogies we are familiar with.

There is a relatively new theory saying that malignant, metastatic cancer cells behave like single cell organisms, and that cancer basically represents an unwanted return to our genetic roots; multicellular organisms used to be single cell organisms a billion years ago and the original genes might carry on within our DNA until today. But they should be switched off. Once they are switched on, the cells will stop coop…

It also has no scientific grounding whatsoever: https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2020/12/06/the-atavi...

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#18

Post by adrian_b »

foxhop wrote: post #9

At the end of the day life is a series of ever complex systems of inputs and outputs. I'm not surprised by the findings and the resolution to this paradox. When we look at apparent inefficiencies of life systems (singletons and complete systems) we have to take into account setting and environmental factors as well as the various layers of abstraction. Looking down at cancer (similar to a defect in software) and ques…

Most animals (actually not only the animals but most eukaryotic cells) can produce energy (in the form of ATP) by transforming glucose into lactic acid, exactly like in the lactic fermentation of milk into yogurt.

(Some animals and some other eukaryotic organisms use other fermentation variants, e.g. alcoholic fermentation by yeasts or fermentation of glucose + water into acetic acid + carbon dioxide + dihydrogen in cells with hydrogenosomes.)

The energy produced thus is many times lower than the energy that could be produced by oxidizing the same quantity of glucose into water and carbon dioxide.

While the energy is low, the power is very high, because the fermentation is done by a simpler sequence of reactions and a much larger quantity of glucose can be fermented in a given time than the quantity that could be fully oxidized.

So the difference between using glucose fermentation and using the oxidation of either glucose or fat is like the difference between using supercapacitors and using batteries.

Some devices are optimized for high power but lower energy storage capacity, while others are optimized for low power but much higher energy capacity.

In most cells there is a more complex hierarchy of energy-producing mechanisms, which are ordered from the highest power and lowest energy capacity to the lowest power and the highest energy capacity. For example, in the muscles of vertebrates, you have, in the order from above, ATP hydrolysis, phosphocreatine hydrolysis, glucose fermentation and finally glucose & fat oxidation.

The vertebrates are actually much better than most other animals at glucose fermentation, which gives them a significant advantage.

Because of that, the vertebrates are able of short bursts of activity that use a very high power, e.g. running short distances or jumping or catching a prey, before having to reduce the power to the lower level that can be sustained for a long time by the aerobic oxidation.

Re: Why cancer cells waste so much energy

#19

Post by whalesalad »

I’m curious to see how fasting might influence cancer treatment. I know in other parts of the world it is seen as a legitimate treatment, while also potentially considered to be a hippy dippy homeopathic treatment. Anecdotally it seems you can starve certain cancers to death pretty easily by severely limiting your caloric intake. I sense a relationship between that and this study.
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