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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#591

Post by arh68 »

You know, I largely agree with the author, I do feel sympathetic. I kinda feel a, idk, lack of sympathy in this thread. Of course you have to learn the machine in front of you, but would you ever have to set $PATH on an iPad? If perhaps I could program Fortran on an iPad, would I really benefit from having the history, the context/history/knowledge of knowing what a $PATH is? Maybe. I doubt it. Knowing /bin from /usr/bin from /sbin from putting . first or last, do you know for fact which $PATH cron/crontab will use? &c &c. Knowing if .bash_profile runs, or .bashrc, or .profile, knowing exactly when they run.. I have not found it fun.

I think you have to admit, most people anyways, that you're ignorant of a lot of systems that came before you. If I gave you an IBM 704, would it be "easy" to program? I would not enjoy that, I think we'd all rather write Fortran on a MacBook. (ask yourself why?)

I have replaced an alternator, but I just learned older cars had "generators" and they're quite distinct (though very similar). I don't know much about "points" or distributors, but I've replaced ignition coils & spark plugs, I feel like I basically understand the gist of that. But I don't know what came before it. I wouldn't fault a mechanic for not knowing points, but an automotive engineer should.

To me, this is where perfectly good wrenching (programming, coding, per se) on its own might be unlikely to advance the state of the art (in software/automotive design). Maybe: To be a really good technician, you should focus narrowly on the hardware/software you service, and not necessarily what came before. But to be a really good engineer/developer/designer, you should focus broadly on everything, to as much depth as you can. Ideally, why not both?

I learned HTML in notepad, then looked for game makers, played with Winamp visualization language, anything that was easily programmable. Did y'all just go straight to writing Rust in Vim?

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#592

Post by dang »

kichimi wrote: post #589
dang wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't cross into personal attack and name-calling in HN comments. It's against the site rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Indignation commonly gets a lot of upvotes but it's not what we're looking for here.

I was aware of that when I posted, but honestly I'm tired of threads like this even hitting the front page of HN. What value does this article even add? It's a google query with a rant attached to it.

That's a separate question. We need you to follow the rules here regardless of how much value an article adds. Perhaps you don't owe the article better, but you owe this community better if you're posting to it.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#593

Post by pvg »

kichimi wrote: post #589
dang wrote: post #556

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please don't cross into personal attack and name-calling in HN comments. It's against the site rules: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . Indignation commonly gets a lot of upvotes but it's not what we're looking for here.

I was aware of that when I posted, but honestly I'm tired of threads like this even hitting the front page of HN. What value does this article even add? It's a google query with a rant attached to it.

What value does this article even add?

You started a 200+ comment value-subtracting subthread so the 'should have stuck to the guidelines' argument seems extra-solid here.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#594

Post by kichimi »

pvg wrote: post #593
kichimi wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was aware of that when I posted, but honestly I'm tired of threads like this even hitting the front page of HN. What value does this article even add? It's a google query with a rant attached to it.

What value does this article even add? You started a 200+ comment value-subtracting subthread so the 'should have stuck to the guidelines' argument seems extra-solid here.

Well I don't know if it was value subtracting, I learned a lot and there was a lot of interesting discussion about history and attempts at graphical programming environments.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#595

Post by kichimi »

dang wrote: post #592
kichimi wrote: post #589

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was aware of that when I posted, but honestly I'm tired of threads like this even hitting the front page of HN. What value does this article even add? It's a google query with a rant attached to it.

That's a separate question. We need you to follow the rules here regardless of how much value an article adds. Perhaps you don't owe the article better, but you owe this community better if you're posting to it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Yeah that's true. I humbly fall on my sword.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#596

Post by sergeykish »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #510
lionkor wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems sounds like you never learned anything about computers before deciding you want to write software for one. It's pointless to argue with someone that has no idea about even the basics of a common OS.

Could you try being more condescending? I can't tell if you actually work in tech yet. We can know how and why '/usr/local/bin' came into being while still disagreeing that it makes any sense to keep using that today. We know why '/sbin' and '/usr/bin' exist separately from '/bin', yet the distinction is completely useless today and so many systems just symlink it all together! It is not unreasonable to suggest that…

It is not hard to critique. The hard part is finding how to change while moving existing ecosystem and preserving all the use cases people depend on.

I expect there is a reason Arch Linux symlinks to /usr/bin and not to /bin:

    $ ls -l /
    bin -> usr/bin
    lib -> usr/lib
    lib64 -> usr/lib
    sbin -> usr/bin
$PATH is configurable and allows several directories. One needs something like Plan 9 namespaces and union mount to replicate, for example, rbenv:

    ; cd foo
    ; bind -a /ruby2.6/lib /lib
    ; bind -a /ruby2.6/bin /bin
Real world analogy: we are not perfect as species, but let's spend our time where and how we can improve instead of speaking of "garbage" in our DNA and how it would be great without it.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#597

Post by cxr »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #510
lionkor wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems sounds like you never learned anything about computers before deciding you want to write software for one. It's pointless to argue with someone that has no idea about even the basics of a common OS.

Could you try being more condescending? I can't tell if you actually work in tech yet. We can know how and why '/usr/local/bin' came into being while still disagreeing that it makes any sense to keep using that today. We know why '/sbin' and '/usr/bin' exist separately from '/bin', yet the distinction is completely useless today and so many systems just symlink it all together! It is not unreasonable to suggest that…

Please don't feed trolls. The comment you're responding to in particular should have been downvoted (or flagged) and then left alone. Engaging accomplishes nothing except to waste your time, squander the attention of other readers, and makes it hard to resist throwing in swipes like "try being more condescending".

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#598

Post by moistbar »

tartaglia wrote: post #580
moistbar wrote: post #567

I think the most infuriating thing to me about this article is that the author doesn't understand the existing tools well enough to have any idea why we need new ones, and instead decided to complain on his blog about how programming is too hard. ANYTHING is hard when you first start out. Try making a table out of wood, or doing origami, or playing an instrument for the first time, and unless you're some bizarre sava…

Wood working is too hard. I don’t care about the properties of this type of wood against that other type of wood. I just want to build a table. Let’s add a wood-working suite in the web browser so I can plan, execute, and build my table from there.

Wtf even is a "saw?"

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#599

Post by cxr »

dijit wrote: post #322
user-the-name wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used and programmed computers for over three decades.

This will sound accusatory, but there is an allegory: "There are people with 30 years experience, and there are people with 1 year of experience repeated 30 times."

Please respect the HN guidelines and don't include baseless insults in your comments to other users.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#600

Post by minkzilla »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #586
minkzilla wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But in the long run knowing all that makes it easier. We could have some GUI for doing all those things but it would end up being a massive mess of buttons EVERYWHERE and endless menus. And maybe a nice wizard could be designed for the given example that you could check the boxes as you go and it would be easy to figure out the first time. But after 5 years of doing this same thing do you want to spend 2 minutes clic…

> But in the long run knowing all that makes it easier. We could have some GUI for doing all those things but it would end up being a massive mess of buttons EVERYWHERE and endless menus. I didn't cite the commandline itself as the problem. PowerShell does a significantly better job at making sense than typical core-utils do, but you hear people used to core-utils bad mouth it all the time because it isn't exactly th…

> And I submit that your lack of ability to conceptualize a GUI for doing the same thing does not mean one can't exist, but that is beside the point

If you have the time I would challenge you to spend an hour or two mocking up what you think a GUI with the same capabilities as powershell or bash would look like. I would genuinely be curious what you come up with. Personally I do not think it would be possible to do in an intuitive way.

> Someone who is just getting started in a new programming environment shouldn't need to know the ins and outs of a dozen different tools, especially when those tools are used to solve problems that user has not even conceptualized the existence of yet.

For some more complicated environments yeah it is hard to get the environment up and running. Python environment hell is a very really thing. But if you want a a simple environment to write a simple program is it trivially easy to get one up and running.

I am on computer I’ve never downloaded python on. I just googled python IDE. Clicked on the top result, pycharm. Downloaded latest release clicked next 4-5 times without looking at options. Opened it. Agreed to some TOS. Clicked new project and then clicked next without looking at any settings. Then I clicked the big green run icon. It printed “Hi, PyCharm”.

Python is a beginner friendly language and if I wanted to start programming it is probably the recommendation I would get. I did not have to know anything to install it and start programming.

And even easier if I want to do front end development I just go to codepen.com and that’s all I need to do!

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