Why can't I write code inside my browser? • Hacker News Board

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#501

Post by jariel » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:41 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #456

jariel wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, this is wrong, it has nothing to do with laziness. The author is very right to point out the fact that the browser in 2020 is still so fundamentally broken. Theoretically, tons of work should be facilitated in the cloud without having to download or setup a single thing. You should be able to make fixes, test etc. in github without having to download the code and toolchain as easy as you would on your desktop.

You... can do this in Github.

In some cases, and in a limited way, yes, but it's clearly not well integrated yet.

Even the 'local' version of software development is a giant mess, we have not well thought out dependencies, tool chains etc..

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#502

Post by TeMPOraL » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:43 PM UTC

virgil_disgr4ce wrote: post #491

TeMPOraL wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shut down YouTube. I'm serious. I don't think there can be another "explosion of creativity" of the (relative) magnitude of Flash, because people now express themselves by recording videos. It's both easier and more social than making interactive software, even with Flash.

That doesn't make any sense. You don't inspire creativity-explosions by shutting down existing platforms, you do it by providing new affordances, which is what Flash did. And videos aren't even interactive! There's not even any comparison here.

Mass creativity follows the path of least resistance. Existence of YouTube - as a much easier and more social venue for self-expression - precludes mass popularity of Flash vids/games. To beat YouTube, a new affordance must be both easier and more socially appealing (because mass creativity tends to be done mostly to show off in front of friends/colleagues or romantic interests).

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#503

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:46 PM UTC

robertlagrant wrote: post #466

user-the-name wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now imagine that gardeners all use chainsaws. They are very proud of how skilled they are at their chainsaw usage. A new person comes in, and asks, why on earth do you all use chainsaws for this? Wouldn't it be easier to use more appropriate tools? And the gardeners immediately call him clueless, make fun of him for not being able to handle a chainsaw, and tell him he will never be a gardener if he can't even figure…

And they'd be right to, because actually the situation is inverted. Saying a useful tool is unnecessary and a symptom of the fact that all tools are broken is the sort of thing the person holding the chainsaw would say, not the people who understand why a whole range of tools exist.

Except the person you're talking to is a gardener, who uses a chainsaw frequently, and is saying that indeed the beginner is right to point out that we should definitely be using a better tool than a chainsaw.

And then people shout them down because they've apparently become so accustomed to using a chainsaw that they honestly can't imagine a better way.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#504

Post by potta_coffee » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

The author can download VSCode, which is an Electron / Chromium app, and write code in it. It has really easy integrations with the command line and lots of other tools as well. It even has features to let you use containerized backends for things like NodeJS. This is almost exactly the solution the author is complaining doesn't exist.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#505

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:47 PM UTC

kaoD wrote: post #346

user-the-name wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should we remove sockets? Possibly. We could most likely design a better API today.

Go ahead and do so, please. You keep saying that things could be better but show no counterexample. Lead the change or stop whining. Nobody is going to do the job for you if they're satisfied by their current tools, especially if they think you're wrong. Do it and prove everyone else wrong. If everyone thinks the status quo can't be improved, but you're enlightened, it's your chance to turn your "likely can be improv…

> Lead the change or stop whining.

Ugh. Look, just because they themselves have not attempted to create something better doesn't mean that their criticisms are invalid.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#506

Post by Triv888 » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:49 PM UTC

    Failed to install node
    Failed to install pip
    Failed to install ruby

I stopped reading after those lines

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#507

Post by aaomidi » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

You probably should've held back.

This is the exact type of behavior thats unwelcoming in this industry.

You don't have to type to write programs. Many people don't. It's why applications that do visual programming have opened the way for AMAZING bursts of creativity.

Everyone should be able to communicate with a computer. The more people that are the more likely it is were going to make fascinating things.

Your elitism in programming is showing. And it's not welcome.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#508

Post by robenkleene » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

shawnz wrote: post #410

robenkleene wrote: post #180

The reason you can't do this is that Node of course has a bunch of file system APIs that for security reasons necessitate an application designed for automatically downloading and executing arbitrary source code can never, ever, have access to. But you could rephrase the authors point this way: Browsers make a ton of concessions to regular users at the expense of developers. Consider for example that the act of devel…

> it barely caters to developers at all. Take for example the "Developer" menu item, which is two levels deep in Chrome. Sure, but it's also in every single right click menu on every page and has several keyboard shortcuts (F12, Ctrl+Shift+I) In my opinion, having to go two menus deep is not "barely catering to the audience at all". The vendor of that product just likes to have clean menus.

A thought experiment if you have time for it: Let's say you take a word processor. It's a great word processor, well-designed for its purpose. But it's primarily designed for "consumer" text editing, things like resumes, school papers, and the like. And let's say you add some programmer specific functionality to it, but do it in a way that doesn't interfere with any of the consumer-first features. E.g., you make it automatically syntax highlight source code files, you make it use a more sophisticated find-and-replace when editing these files, you add a file drawer that you can toggle via two levels in the menu bar, etc...

Would you be interested in using this word processor for programming over your text editor or IDE which is designed first-and-foremost for programming? If not, what's the difference between this and the way Chrome treats developers? (I'm not being disingenuous here, I honestly don't see the difference personally.)

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#509

Post by ska » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:50 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #437

lionkor wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Programming COULD use a lot of simplification I disagree, actually. There are plenty of languages, and even visual programming (via flow-diagrams, like Unreal Engine's "Blueprint" and Blender's shader flow diagrams), for those who just want to play around. For people who want to write a quick and dirty script, languages like python make it very easy already (relative to what they actually do). > Programming COULD u…

> There are languages and domains where the "elitism" is fully justified. If someone decides they want to write a high performance, easy to use, cross platform native application and complain about C++ or Rust being too complicated, then they should find an easier job. I disagree. I follow a lot of game developers and you'd be hard pressed to say they don't do high-performance corss-platform native application develo…

> The former is so sick of C++ he's making his own programming language,

This has happened pretty regularly for decades at this point, people hate on c++ and think they have the silver bullet approach to do things better. They spend a few years on it, and it fails to get much traction.

There is a network effect around c++, sure. But industry standards are there for reasons, and usually most of them have a core at least that is sensible. People keep coming back to c++ mostly because it works, and it turns out often if you start with a safer and cleaner language you get 80% of the way there much faster, but a lot of the 20% that's left over is performance related and you just can't get there no matter how hard you try.

So from a business point of view, the pain level of c++ (and associated costs) is somewhat known, but most other approaches trade that off against project risks people just aren't willing to take.

It's not inherently crazy, even in 2021 to start a new high performance project in c++. Obviously the exact requirements matter, but there is a subset of what it can do that we don't really have a obviously good replacement for. What would be crazy is starting a new project in it that doesn't really need any of thee things it's good at.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#510

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Fri, Jan 15, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

lionkor wrote: post #268

user-the-name wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, "/usr/local/bin" is an artifact that made sense on that system, and that system alone, but we started using it elsewhere, and not it is so firmly established we do not dare to change it, even though it is a completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems.

> completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems sounds like you never learned anything about computers before deciding you want to write software for one. It's pointless to argue with someone that has no idea about even the basics of a common OS.

Could you try being more condescending? I can't tell if you actually work in tech yet.

We can know how and why '/usr/local/bin' came into being while still disagreeing that it makes any sense to keep using that today.

We know why '/sbin' and '/usr/bin' exist separately from '/bin', yet the distinction is completely useless today and so many systems just symlink it all together!

It is not unreasonable to suggest that just because we keep doing things a certain way means that doing it that way is the right way to do it.