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The Spoon Theory (2003)

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Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#121

Post by anotherforsure »

treeman79 wrote: post #81

Congratulations, you have earned the achievement “chronic condition”. Your rewards are as follows. You have max exhaustion at all hours of the day! Exercise recovery is bumped from next day to 2 weeks! Your pain level is now on par with dying cancer patients! Everyone now considers you lazy and incompetent! Doctors now blame all symptoms on anxiety! You gain +1 to medical research ability. But -20 to Reputation. You…

+ 200 to weight; Doctors will now ignore any chronic issues and the only medical advice you're ever going to get is to lose weight.*

*The "In too much pain to eat" perk nullifies this status effect

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#122

Post by amalcon »

msoucy wrote: post #114

My favorite variation of this involves Dungeons and Dragons' spell slots mechanic. (Full disclaimer, I didn't make the concept, and can't find the post that I read it from) For every long rest, you get a limited number of spell slots - for example at level 5 you get 4 level 1 spell slots, 3 level 2 spell slots, and 2 level 3 spell slots. These are all the "major" spells you can cast before you need to long rest again…

That's a very interesting variant. Since it works for healthy people as well, you can describe what changes more directly. It also captures that not all conditions are identical. For a healthy person, getting out of bed in the morning is maybe a level 1; making dinner is a level 2; going to the bathroom is a cantrip; maybe going to work is a level 3.

Now you have a chronic medical condition. With your particular condition, getting out of bed a level 3, you have no cantrips, and you need to spend 2-3 level 2's per week going to the doctor (rather than 2-3 per year). Now, you've used up your level 3's just by getting out of bed and going to work, you need to use level 1's to go to the bathroom, and you used a level 2 on a doctor appointment (so you're out of them by dinnertime).

Someone else may have no more difficulty getting out of bed, and may not need so many doctor appointments, but randomly once a month they just don't get any slots back in the morning. So, they need to keep that extra level 3 in reserve to go to work tomorrow in case that happens.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#123

Post by Puts »

chromanoid wrote: post #107
notatrumper wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes you assume I learned something I didn't already know? As I said, I know there are people who have it worse than me. And as I also said, and you confirmed, it makes sense if you have somebody in your circles who has such a condition. Apart from that - my question was, why do you complain, or get annoyed?

The fact that you complain about somebody who complains about somebody, who thinks it's a good idea to bring up that "everybody feels bad sometimes" in a comment section about a personal report regarding a severe illness, should have told me that you are probably unable to learn in this regard. I complain about stupid people who think it's necessary to bring up that "everybody struggles some more, some less" in a com…

I think my comment might have been severely misunderstood. By saying that everybody struggles I did not mean "Stop wining because it's worse for others". What I meant was, we all go thorough periods when our spoons are not enough, and that this is totally okay. Going trough difficulties and thinking you are the only one is harmful and feeling alone in such circumstances is unnecessary because we all find our self there sometimes.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#124

Post by notatrumper »

chromanoid wrote: post #118
notatrumper wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's OK to worry about totalitarian control, as there are always groups and politicians working towards that goal. It's actually one of the lessons one should draw from remembering dark times. Some people may worry more than others. I have read reports from therapists that they have clients from former communist countries who struggle with the lockdowns, because it reminds them or horrific things they experienced. Th…

> It's OK to worry about totalitarian control I agree. > Some people may worry more than others. I have read reports from therapists that they have clients from former communist countries who struggle with the lockdowns, because it reminds them or horrific things they experienced. Those are probably not the people who compare themselves with Sophie Scholl on protests or something like that. They know the difference.…

"Those are probably not the people who compare themselves with Sophie Scholl on protests or something like that. They know the difference."

Are there many of those? Here in Germany we had one case I am aware of, and while I didn't follow it closely, it seems very likely that she has some kind of mental health issue.

"Really? I think this only makes sense when you have a rosy idea about how totalitarianism looks like."

Nobody claims what we are experiencing right now feels the same as life under fascism. Just that it feels like the prelude to it.

I don't think it is far fetched at all. We've seen major changes of our way of life and people's attitude over a short amount of time, and major divide in society, driven by fear.

The hate is real - people fear for their lives and the lives of their parents, and they are ready to blame whoever comes in handy. And the hate is murderous, especially because people fear about their own lives.

I think if you enter a shop without a mask, you can well except violence from some people.

And it can get worse if people refuse to get vaccinated. Already businesses promise not to do businesses with such people anymore. How can you NOT see analogies? You could say not getting vaccinated is voluntary, being Jewish is not. Nevertheless, there are parallels. Nobody claims the exact same thing is happening.

It seems likely to me that fear for their lives was also what drove people to adopt fascism. The rosy view is to look back and think it was just stupidity or "evilness". I think people also feared for their lives. Here in Germany they had just witnessed an extremely murderous war (at a scale we can not imagine anymore), murderous insurrections, stuff like that.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#125

Post by notatrumper »

chromanoid wrote: post #119
notatrumper wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure if I would tell you about the death of my dog in this thread, you would complain that I bring it up in the context of somebody with a horrible chronic disease. I just want to understand your motivation, and the motivation of the OP. I guess I have a feeling you like to lord it over other people with the help of victims of diseases. (Similar things tend to happen when somebody dies - there are always people w…

You really don't want to get it. > I guess I have a feeling you like to lord it over other people with the help of victims of diseases. (Similar things tend to happen when somebody dies - there are always people who then order other people around on the basis of "the deceased would want us to do x"). WTF man. "TBQH I have a real dislike for the relativistic thinking that people apply to this." So lordly! > I never on…

"lording" was a bit strong, I just couldn't think of better words to describe it.

You clearly seem to want me to do or feel "something". In the other thread you talk about things like "the decent thing to do", "showing empathy", and so on.

My question was, why. What's it to you. As I said, I don't know the woman with the spoons, and I also don't play down her predicament.

So why do you want me to behave in a certain way? That's "lording", for lack of a better word. You want to determine how other people have to behave.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#126

Post by chromanoid »

notatrumper wrote: post #124
chromanoid wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's OK to worry about totalitarian control I agree. > Some people may worry more than others. I have read reports from therapists that they have clients from former communist countries who struggle with the lockdowns, because it reminds them or horrific things they experienced. Those are probably not the people who compare themselves with Sophie Scholl on protests or something like that. They know the difference.…

"Those are probably not the people who compare themselves with Sophie Scholl on protests or something like that. They know the difference." Are there many of those? Here in Germany we had one case I am aware of, and while I didn't follow it closely, it seems very likely that she has some kind of mental health issue. "Really? I think this only makes sense when you have a rosy idea about how totalitarianism looks like.…

Ich glaube kaum, dass Faschismus der Furcht um das eigene Leben entspringt. Faschismus wird aus Stolz, Unzufriedenheit und der Sehnsucht nach Führung und Gleichschaltung geboren. Ich bin da kein Experte, aber Faschismus ist sicher keine Frucht um das eigene Leben. Meine Urgroßeltern waren sicher zumindest zum Teil Nationalisten, Rassisten, Antisemiten und Monarchisten. Das geht sicher vielen Deutschen und vielen Europäern so. Ich glaube in so einer Atmosphäre hat Faschismus leichtes Spiel. Faschismus ist aus meiner Sicht motiviert durch eine konservative Sehnsucht nach Ordnung in einer turbulenten neuen Zeit der Republiken und demokratischen Bestrebung, die viele einfach überfordert hat.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#127

Post by chromanoid »

notatrumper wrote: post #125
chromanoid wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really don't want to get it. > I guess I have a feeling you like to lord it over other people with the help of victims of diseases. (Similar things tend to happen when somebody dies - there are always people who then order other people around on the basis of "the deceased would want us to do x"). WTF man. "TBQH I have a real dislike for the relativistic thinking that people apply to this." So lordly! > I never on…

"lording" was a bit strong, I just couldn't think of better words to describe it. You clearly seem to want me to do or feel "something". In the other thread you talk about things like "the decent thing to do", "showing empathy", and so on. My question was, why. What's it to you. As I said, I don't know the woman with the spoons, and I also don't play down her predicament. So why do you want me to behave in a certain…

No, I don't want you to feel something. I just think if you think the way you describe it, it's not very empathic and also not very thoughtful. And I wanted to tell you that in an attempt to give you another perspective on what padolsey wrote. I can live with you not being empathic or thoughtful. I just failed to give you another in my mind morally and intellectually superior perspective. I wanted to give it to you for free :)

You seem to have a problem with me thinking that about you. When I try to explain my perspective, you seem to try to dismiss my arguments by making up ways I might not be empathic myself etc.

You constantly ask "What is the point?" Why do you think the woman wrote about her spoon theory? What is her point? Do you really think padolsey wrote the comment on relativistic thinking to play thought police?

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#128

Post by chromanoid »

Puts wrote: post #123
chromanoid wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that you complain about somebody who complains about somebody, who thinks it's a good idea to bring up that "everybody feels bad sometimes" in a comment section about a personal report regarding a severe illness, should have told me that you are probably unable to learn in this regard. I complain about stupid people who think it's necessary to bring up that "everybody struggles some more, some less" in a com…

I think my comment might have been severely misunderstood. By saying that everybody struggles I did not mean "Stop wining because it's worse for others". What I meant was, we all go thorough periods when our spoons are not enough, and that this is totally okay. Going trough difficulties and thinking you are the only one is harmful and feeling alone in such circumstances is unnecessary because we all find our self the…

Yeah, nobody should feel alone. The spoon theory helped the author to feel a bit less alone, because her friend who did not understand her, could understand her a little bit more with the spoon theory.

Her friend probably thought, "hey I also sometimes feel a lack of spoons". But the enormous extent the author has to deal with spoon management still surprised her friend. It surprised me too.

I don't think it's ok to have such a lack of spoons. I think some people are indeed very lonely when it comes to their kind of lack of spoons. I don't think thinking that way is harmful. Getting such a severe illness is a severe loss of life quality. You will probably grief for the rest of your life. It's nothing you can fully move on from.

At least I would never hug a person with such a background while saying "I understand you". That is impossible for me. Hugging, of course, yes, but claiming any real knowledge about how such constant lack of spoons must feel is impossible for me.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#129

Post by notatrumper »

chromanoid wrote: post #128
Puts wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think my comment might have been severely misunderstood. By saying that everybody struggles I did not mean "Stop wining because it's worse for others". What I meant was, we all go thorough periods when our spoons are not enough, and that this is totally okay. Going trough difficulties and thinking you are the only one is harmful and feeling alone in such circumstances is unnecessary because we all find our self the…

Yeah, nobody should feel alone. The spoon theory helped the author to feel a bit less alone, because her friend who did not understand her, could understand her a little bit more with the spoon theory. Her friend probably thought, "hey I also sometimes feel a lack of spoons". But the enormous extent the author has to deal with spoon management still surprised her friend. It surprised me too. I don't think it's ok to…

That's again the classic power games bullshit. "You could never understand me", "It's impossible for me to understand you" and so on. That's overly dramatic and self-aggrandizing. And in the case of the person who is sick, also inducing unnecessary loneliness.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#130

Post by notatrumper »

chromanoid wrote: post #127
notatrumper wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"lording" was a bit strong, I just couldn't think of better words to describe it. You clearly seem to want me to do or feel "something". In the other thread you talk about things like "the decent thing to do", "showing empathy", and so on. My question was, why. What's it to you. As I said, I don't know the woman with the spoons, and I also don't play down her predicament. So why do you want me to behave in a certain…

No, I don't want you to feel something. I just think if you think the way you describe it, it's not very empathic and also not very thoughtful. And I wanted to tell you that in an attempt to give you another perspective on what padolsey wrote. I can live with you not being empathic or thoughtful. I just failed to give you another in my mind morally and intellectually superior perspective. I wanted to give it to you f…

You don't want anything from me, yet you accuse me of not being emphatic. Or you just want to help me to communicate better, but then, how about reading other people's comments without prejudice?

The correct way to show empathy to you seems to be to show pity or say "oh my god it is so bad, I could never understand it, because I have it undeservedly so much better than you", or something along those lines?

"You constantly ask "What is the point?" Why do you think the woman wrote about her spoon theory? What is her point? Do you really think padolsey wrote the comment on relativistic thinking to play thought police?"

Indeed, I asked myself the question, I think it is a valid one. I thought her description was interesting and I therefore upvoted it. But I also resented her for the "you are all so clueless and could never understand how hard it is for me" vibes. To be honest, I get some "identity politics" vibes from that, it reminds me of the "white people can never know how bad it is for black people" or "men can never know how bad it is for women" nonsense, boiling down to "I'm so special". I don't like it also because it is so self-defeating. The spoon woman seems to think everybody else has unlimited spoons, which is of course not true.

And the relativistic thinking comment - I don't know? Maybe he wants us to be aware at all times, and make everything we have our privileged access to, also accessible to people with severe illnesses? Why did he make the comment?

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