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The Spoon Theory (2003)

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Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#101

Post by notatrumper »

chromanoid wrote: post #82
notatrumper wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people have it even worse - they die. So again, what is the point? I acknowledge that some (many) people have it worse than myself. Now what? It is also a common recommendation to meditate on ones inevitable death daily. Maybe thinking about the fate of sick people could have a similar effect. And of course one can wonder how to improve things for sick people. But that's only useful to some extent. I think it ma…

When you bond with somebody with Lupus or another severe illness or who generally has it worse than yourself you can now better understand how they live their life. Many people don't know how such things affect a person on a daily basis. You just learned something about the human condition. Isn't that something? You don't have to do something at all.

What makes you assume I learned something I didn't already know? As I said, I know there are people who have it worse than me.

And as I also said, and you confirmed, it makes sense if you have somebody in your circles who has such a condition.

Apart from that - my question was, why do you complain, or get annoyed?

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#102

Post by TeMPOraL »

alisonkisk wrote: post #97
TeMPOraL wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed it is. And if you look at it, most of the arguments against tech in general - including all the hand-wringing about AI, privacy and evil tech bros - they're all arguments against capitalism. But it would be boring to repeat the same thing that's been repeated for the past 100+ years, so people instead confuse symptoms with cause.

If capitalism is defined as "everything people do that has has negative externalities" that's tautological and useless.

It's not that. All these things have a common root cause in the form of businesses accumulating capital and making decisions to abuse people. The public discourse is distracted by focusing on minutia - AI does this, robots do that - instead of noticing the common thread: business people decide to use this technology to hurt people.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#103

Post by mindvirus »

Obviously not as serious as a chronic illness, I feel like having kids and working during quarantine is similar. After taking care of work and their needs, you don't have very many spoons left for yourself. So I like this analogy a lot, it seems helpful in being realistic with yourself in terms of your capabilities.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#104

Post by TeMPOraL »

alisonkisk wrote: post #94
TeMPOraL wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The anti-automation argument isn't that automation is bad, and grueling labor is good. The argument is that being forced to change careers can be - depending at which age it happens for a person - anything from taking away significant amounts of wealth to complete impossibility. When you change careers, you usually start at the bottom of the ladder. Past a certain point, such switch is not recoverable, and best you c…

The lean FIRE people show that the bad part of losing a high income career is the hugely wasteful lifestyle that preceded it, not the career or it's loss. Automatic sending wealth to capital instead of labor is another issue, perhaps better viewed as capital ownership being centralized as the actual problem.

Achieving FIRE is relatively rare and privileged situation. Many families have non-negotiable expenses, particularly around healthcare. Even for those who don't, going lean will be a huge shock and a downgrade in quality of life. It's only reasonable such people will object. Much like I myself could survive on 20% of my income, but I wouldn't be happy about it being forced on me.

> Automatic sending wealth to capital instead of labor is another issue, perhaps better viewed as capital ownership being centralized as the actual problem.

That's the underlying issue. Not the fault of automation per se, but of the thing that drives it. It serves to highlight my point: anti-automation arguments aren't really about automation itself.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#105

Post by koheripbal »

rozza wrote: post #59

My wife has chronic cancer* and one day when talking to the doctor at the hospice after a period of grueling treatment she talked about only having so many "spoons" in a day. The doctor liked the analogy as it was a fun way at looking at a real issue. I'm pleased I now know where it comes from! This analogy helped us both come to terms with managing her lower energy levels. * I use the term chronic cancer as she has…

I know this thread is about the severely limited energy of chronic pain sufferers, but there's some good lessons here for the rest of us healthy folks as well.

While we have many more spoons than someone who's ill, our spoons are still limited in number each day, despite most of us assuming they are unlimited.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#106

Post by chromanoid »

notatrumper wrote: post #100
chromanoid wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like complaining about people who claim they live under a fascist regime because they have to wear masks in the supermarket. It's making a point about human decency.

Maybe for some people the consequences of lockdowns are more severe than for you. Aren't you all about feeling with people's predicaments? Also I don't agree with the (common) argument that nobody should be allowed to complain about anything, because there is always somebody who has it worse, somewhere in the world. Like with solving "first world problems" - yes, it seems frivolous to worry about getting an even bett…

> Maybe for some people the consequences of lockdowns are more severe than for you. Aren't you all about feeling with people's predicaments?

Bringing up fascism to make your struggle important is never a good idea. I can feel solidarity without being reminded of really dark aspects of humanity.

> Or put differently, it can not be the only purpose of life to help people who have it worse.

I agree.

I only talk about acknowledgement. It's not that hard. Also it's simply unethical to compare first world problems with somebody starving in a concentration camp. You can do that, but it's annoying and stupid. I think it's ok to complain about stupidity of other people.

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#107

Post by chromanoid »

notatrumper wrote: post #101
chromanoid wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you bond with somebody with Lupus or another severe illness or who generally has it worse than yourself you can now better understand how they live their life. Many people don't know how such things affect a person on a daily basis. You just learned something about the human condition. Isn't that something? You don't have to do something at all.

What makes you assume I learned something I didn't already know? As I said, I know there are people who have it worse than me. And as I also said, and you confirmed, it makes sense if you have somebody in your circles who has such a condition. Apart from that - my question was, why do you complain, or get annoyed?

The fact that you complain about somebody who complains about somebody, who thinks it's a good idea to bring up that "everybody feels bad sometimes" in a comment section about a personal report regarding a severe illness, should have told me that you are probably unable to learn in this regard.

I complain about stupid people who think it's necessary to bring up that "everybody struggles some more, some less" in a comment section about a personal report regarding a severe illness.

Let's say your fictional (?) dog dies and you talk about your experience with it. Should I tell you that my wife's dad died in a motorcycle crash? Or that everybody has their struggles? That would be the epitome of human decency, wouldn't it?

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#109

Post by aszantu »

rozza wrote: post #59

My wife has chronic cancer* and one day when talking to the doctor at the hospice after a period of grueling treatment she talked about only having so many "spoons" in a day. The doctor liked the analogy as it was a fun way at looking at a real issue. I'm pleased I now know where it comes from! This analogy helped us both come to terms with managing her lower energy levels. * I use the term chronic cancer as she has…

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tteYZfMat4 may you find a solution

Re: The Spoon Theory (2003)

#110

Post by arbitrage »

koheripbal wrote: post #99
rpaddock wrote: post #80

If you want to understand the day to day issues of real people then please watch the documentary *Pain Warriors* that is about Chronic Pain. It is five stories, four of people with Chronic Pain, two that ended in suicides. My late wife Karen being one of them. The other story is of a doctor that the Medical Establishment destroyed for helping those with Chronic Pain. It is *NOT* a warm and fuzzy movie to watch. For f…

> The other story is of a doctor that the Medical Establishment destroyed for helping those with Chronic Pain. Was this the result of the industry crack down on the over-prescription of opioids and various opioid manufacturers being forced to cut opioid production and marketing? Society went from one extreme of "we need to treat pain like a disease and medicate it", to the other extreme of "Holy moly we created an op…

I don't know about this specific movie, but my real life experience is that a doctor who dares to be compassionate in terms of long-term pain or opioid-substitution treatment often gets shunned by other medical professionals in the local community, up to and including blacklisting and professional/organisational harassment.

like ... if the community turns against one of their own, they manufacture a sort-of constructive dismissal sort of arrangement, and the doctor who stepped out of line behaves and never does that again, quits, or goes out of business.

It can be remarkably brutal and ruthless, and i have no doubt that it is purposeful and cruel by desgin.

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