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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

521–530 of 624 posts

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#521
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd argue that Rust is meaningfully simpler than C++. Mind you, it's also a fairly feature-rich language, but the complexity of C++ comes from decades of new features building up trying to supersede older features. C++ is several different languages by now depending on which feature set you use, but Rust is still just one language. C++'s complexity is also a product of design choices like using templates to do both g…

I don't know much about Rust, because it doesn't seem to be the kind of language I want to use, so I can't personally speak to its complexity. However, I do know that a lot of objections to it from the people I follow are around the borrow checker and both the friction and high[0] compile times it causes. [0] to put that in context, Jon is frequently annoyed by the sub-second linking time incurred by LLVM because it…

Rust is like a modernized, more well-furnished (and more ergonomic and secure) C. That may sound like C++, but C++ is also the most complicated programming language in existence.

What makes it worse is that complication doesn't even exist for "good" technological reasons; it only exists for inertial, industrial reasons like compatibility with C and 1980s naivete -- both because of and in spite of it, since, like the other person said, even more complexity was bolted on to try to force new lessons without breaking backwards compatibility.

I used to love C++, since I thought its complexity was somehow, fundamentally necessary for a lang to be a "fancier C". Once I learned Rust and found out that was not true, I now hate C++ with a passion and can't wait until it completely displaces C++, which it should do ASAP[0]. :D

THAT SAID, some people (who are much better programmers than I am), say that C++ is the most expressively versatile language around, which is at least a "good" technological reason for its enduring existence. That's one I can't relate to, though, since the people who are saying that tend to be talking about very advanced, byzantine aspects of C++ that I never got to.

0: https://i.imgur.com/tbEohzT.png

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even hardworking developers will sometimes don't care about the user experience. For example, Linus could have spent a few hours polishing the git CLI. Instead we have had millions of developer hours wasted in making sens of the CLI inconsistencies...

There is also infinite configurability and plugability through aliases and plugins. If you really hate `git checkout -b`, ship `git make-branch` that suits your taste. You can even package it as a trivial script to redistribute if you wanted.

IMO sane defaults are sometimes worth more than infinite extensibility.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#525
post #187
post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

I think the author is not talking about career programming. If that's your job, you have no excuses not learning command lines and all the other stuff. This, I think, is more intended for people who are not really programmers, but would like to write a bit of logic, and find themselves with tools intended for professionals. Because I am an experienced programmer now, I may be biased but I have a feeling we raised the…

I think the barriers are lower. As a kid, my obstacles were things like not having access to a free compiler. Or maybe I could have gotten a free one but I was a kid and the only ones I was aware of were hundreds of dollars, way out of reach. Now I can download any compiler I want for free, as well as tools like VSCode, Visual Studio etc. Also there are environments like Dr. Racket, which are awesome and can be used to build basically any kind of application, and come with all the tutorials at your fingertips.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. Nobody has said this to you in this thread, and the fact that you're acting like it is the only toxic thing here. This is called a straw-man logical fallacy, you misrepresent my argument so it makes it easier for you to attack. Nobody ha…

> I'm saying the tools are not weird if you understand them No, they are still weird. They are only not weird if you've become accustomed to the weirdness. I primarily develop on Windows, and when I come to Linux to work on things I am astonished to find that Linux developers think nothing of using upwards of half a dozen different languages to build one thing. CMake, autoconf, shell, and python all being used to bui…

I think a lot of this thread is people’s biases from what they are used to. I’m one of those guys who started on the command line and lived on the command line most of his life. I couldn’t imagine a more productive environment! I consider a bunch of xterms running vi to be the pinnacle of IDEs. But I did two brief stints at Windows shops and just couldn’t get really productive. The guy next to me who was scared of the command line and never went outside Visual Studio? He wasn’t stupid, he just had a different lineage and got accustomed to a different environment and workflow. One is not inherently better than the other.

That said, if you are a modern web developer, you just have to understand the command line. You have to know what /usr/local/bin is. You have to know how to install your toolchain. It’s inconvenient, but it’s table stakes. I don’t think it’s reasonable to say “Hey! I’m used to GUIs so people programming on the command line are wrong and I shouldn’t need to know about /usr/local/bin“

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#528
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relevant alan kay video from 1968 https://youtu.be/QQhVQ1UG6aM

That is extremely impressive. I'm not sure I want to code like that, but damn is it impressive.

Everything looks better on a vector display. :-)

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#529
> Why can't I write [NodeJS] code inside my browser?

Short answer: you can write NodeJS code inside your browser[0]. Being able to do so will not solve ANY of the problems listed in your blogpost.

The author's problem is that they don't have an attention span for learning a domain which contains necessary complexity; they crave quickfixes but don't have enough basic knowledge to understand why those quickfixes won't help them.

> An incomplete list of things I’ve tried and failed to do:

> [lists 3 things that most/many web programmers fail to do regularly as part of their day-to-day]

I've failed to install node or pip at least 100 times. This is a normal part of learning anything in life. How many times did you fall off your bicycle as a child?

[0] Whether it's repl.it, Codespaces or some other method there a million ways to do this depending on your needs. All do require a basic understanding of code which the author seems to lack (their bullet list of coding projects are all based on pre-existing templates & copypaste, especially their "fairly complex Jekyll blog")

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also infinite configurability and plugability through aliases and plugins. If you really hate `git checkout -b`, ship `git make-branch` that suits your taste. You can even package it as a trivial script to redistribute if you wanted.

IMO sane defaults are sometimes worth more than infinite extensibility.

IMO extensibility generally means the authors dont know how real people will use software.

Programmers do things by writing code, compiling, deploying, etc... so the notion of customizing an app through anything that looks like their workflow seems fine to them.

OTOH I write code for a living and I often hate the tools we use...

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