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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#351

Post by 0-_-0 »

rualca wrote: post #348
0-_-0 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The command line is a layer of abstraction that could be made unnecessary for programming. You could program in Turbo Pascal without a command line in the 90s

> The command line is a layer of abstraction that could be made unnecessary for programming. Wow, if I ever saw a comment on HN that was fundamentally wrong on many levels, this was it. No, a command line interface is not "a layer of abstraction". A command line interface is an interface. That's it. Instead of pressing a button, you run a command. If you want to pass settings to an app when you launch it, you use the…

Sure, but you're entirely missing the point. Question is, is it necessary for programming? I repeat, to be entirely clear, is it necessary? Not useful, but necessary for a beginner to touch the command line?

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#352

Post by xkriva11 »

narcissismo wrote: post #285

Because you haven't found lively kernel. https://lively-kernel.org/

A significant weakness of Lively is missing proper debugger. Amber (https://amber-lang.net/) has one (but it is not plain JavaScript). The next complaint is that you need to host it.

Ideally, the system should have a good debugger and have an option to be self-hosted like TiddlyWiki (with an option to be served by a normal server). I did some experiment in this regard (https://pavel-krivanek.github.io/amber/amber.html - only "legacy IDE" work) but then you can save it and it will save the new version with all the changes you did as a self-hosted HTML file.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#353

Post by [deleted] »

mypalmike wrote: post #331
malux85 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been programming for 25 years now, about 20 of which as a developer at billion dollar companies, google, facebook and various high scale hedge funds, including systems that serve billions of users a day. I have had a hobby in embedded programming and FPGA programming, compiler design and distributed deep learning. All of which used /usr/local/bin and $PATH. Every system, regardless of programming language across…

So I think what's happening is that there are people here who have maybe been programming longer than you have. And we remember when professional programs might be written in BASIC and sold on 5.25 inch floppies. On machines with no /usr/local or PATH. And then we programmed PCs using Borland or Symantec or whatever IDE and there was no /usr/local or (usually) PATH to be concerned about. And we programmed MacOS befor…

[deleted]

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#354

Post by humanrebar »

accountLost wrote: post #263
izacus wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Programming COULD use a lot of simplification and removal of barriers. But still, just like you, I really hate the base attitude here. And for a different reason: I find that programmers who think like this, are also lazy when it comes to respecting the user. They're lazy when it comes to supporting accessibility. They're lazy when it somes to properly supporting i18n and making experience great for non-Americans. Th…

Even hardworking developers will sometimes don't care about the user experience. For example, Linus could have spent a few hours polishing the git CLI. Instead we have had millions of developer hours wasted in making sens of the CLI inconsistencies...

There is also infinite configurability and plugability through aliases and plugins.

If you really hate `git checkout -b`, ship `git make-branch` that suits your taste. You can even package it as a trivial script to redistribute if you wanted.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#355

Post by richardwhiuk »

tommilukkarinen wrote: post #330
GuB-42 wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the author is not talking about career programming. If that's your job, you have no excuses not learning command lines and all the other stuff. This, I think, is more intended for people who are not really programmers, but would like to write a bit of logic, and find themselves with tools intended for professionals. Because I am an experienced programmer now, I may be biased but I have a feeling we raised the…

When you put it this way, it makes perfect sense. My first computer C64 came with Basic pre-installed and that's how an eight year old learned to code. I guess the equivalent would be, that there would a button 'code' on the browser UI, and that would lead the user onwards.

Open the Developer Console. Get cracking.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#357

Post by malux85 »

mypalmike wrote: post #331
malux85 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been programming for 25 years now, about 20 of which as a developer at billion dollar companies, google, facebook and various high scale hedge funds, including systems that serve billions of users a day. I have had a hobby in embedded programming and FPGA programming, compiler design and distributed deep learning. All of which used /usr/local/bin and $PATH. Every system, regardless of programming language across…

So I think what's happening is that there are people here who have maybe been programming longer than you have. And we remember when professional programs might be written in BASIC and sold on 5.25 inch floppies. On machines with no /usr/local or PATH. And then we programmed PCs using Borland or Symantec or whatever IDE and there was no /usr/local or (usually) PATH to be concerned about. And we programmed MacOS befor…

I started with BASIC on a second-hand VIC20, and then onto assembler on an 80286 running DOS. So I've been there.

I define "fundamental" as something thats in wide use and deployment in actively running systems. Like $PATH being in every operating system used today and /usr/local/bin on every linux distribution running on literally hundreds of millions of servers globally, right now.

And the requirement of understanding these are part of what's holding back the author of the article from not having a running ruby, pip and node.js

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#358

Post by kubanczyk »

twobitshifter wrote: post #249
0-_-0 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Already did. The author found that installing Node.js needs knowledge about the command line while Excel just needs a few clicks of "Next" (I just did it yesterday)

Node.js could improve their installer, would that solve all of OPs complaints?

Partially. OP also wrote that he want's a JS IDE bundled.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#359

Post by davorak »

user-the-name wrote: post #321
malux85 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. Nobody has said this to you in this thread, and the fact that you're acting like it is the only toxic thing here. This is called a straw-man logical fallacy, you misrepresent my argument so it makes it easier for you to attack. Nobody ha…

First you say nobody has called me stupid. Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH, you tell me that I don't understand command line tools. I have been using them for decades. I know them very, VERY well. I am saying all of this from a position of long and deep familiarity with the tools. Yet immediately you jump the conclusion that I just don't know what I am talking about.

> First you say nobody has called me stupid. > Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH, you tell me that I don't understand command line tools.

Nothing I read by malux85 implied to me that not understanding command line tools makes someone stupid.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#360

Post by humanrebar »

cdu1 wrote: post #127
user-the-name wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason. Programmers tend to get very proud of the completely pointless knowledge they have to acquire to use the pointlessly complicated tools they do, and they confuse that with being clever. It's not. It's really not. Nothing has to be this esoteric and annoying. We've just chosen to keep things like this because we th…

"Programming can and should be much, much more user friendly than it is now." While there's no doubt there are some libraries/tools/systems which are poorly designed, perceived complexity may often be due to the requirement to support a wide variety of new and legacy systems or to support layers of the tech stack that many people are not even aware of. "We've just chosen to keep things like this because we think it m…

Agreed.

Two of the pieces of irreducible complexity that beginners have problems understanding (or even appreciating!) are change management and software delivery. If a newcomer created a simple but novel program and it turned out to be successful, two sure-to-follow requirements are:

- Now someone else wants to access and suggest changes to your project. In parallel. Without breaking anything.

- Now the software needs to be shared with others outside of the development environment.

Both create a surprising amount of complexity and require fourth- and fifth-dimensional thinking. You have to learn a version control system (probably)! You have to learn how to perform a code review! You have to do learn software design and hopefully documentation.

You have to learn and leverage at least one packaging ecosystem for the development approach that was chosen. Hopefully you chose one with an accessible packaging ecosystem, assuming that exists!

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