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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#321

Post by user-the-name »

malux85 wrote: post #310
user-the-name wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I am saying is, as soon as someone new to programming points out, entirely correctly, that the tools we use are weird, obscure and difficult to use for no apparent reason, programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. As is happening everywhere in this very thread. I am saying th…

> programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. Nobody has said this to you in this thread, and the fact that you're acting like it is the only toxic thing here. This is called a straw-man logical fallacy, you misrepresent my argument so it makes it easier for you to attack. Nobody ha…

First you say nobody has called me stupid.

Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH, you tell me that I don't understand command line tools.

I have been using them for decades. I know them very, VERY well. I am saying all of this from a position of long and deep familiarity with the tools.

Yet immediately you jump the conclusion that I just don't know what I am talking about.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#322

Post by dijit »

user-the-name wrote: post #270
lionkor wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> completely arbitrary choice with no relevance to modern systems sounds like you never learned anything about computers before deciding you want to write software for one. It's pointless to argue with someone that has no idea about even the basics of a common OS.

I've used and programmed computers for over three decades.

This will sound accusatory, but there is an allegory:

"There are people with 30 years experience, and there are people with 1 year of experience repeated 30 times."

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#323

Post by user-the-name »

imtringued wrote: post #312
user-the-name wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I write code for a company worth hundreds of millions every day, with a world-class user rating. I don't use the command line at all. I CAN use the command line. I know very well how to do it. I have done it for decades. But when I program for iOS, I don't need it. The tooling is good enough that I never need to. So I don't. There's no reason this couldn't be the case for other environment too. There's nothing magica…

You can just start up Eclipse or Visual Studio (the original) and have the exact same experience. That's how I started with Java and zero Linux knowledge. What you are really complaining about is the fact that nobody is there to shout in your face that these options exist.

Can you do that for node.js, like the person in the linked article wants to use?

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#324

Post by selfhoster11 »

MaxBarraclough wrote: post #198
user-the-name wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Standard unix shells. They contain a massive amount of complexity and obfuscation that only exists because that's how it was always done and nobody dares change it any longer.

Like what? Please be specific or we can't have a meaningful discussion. I use Bash a fair amount and I don't consider it overly complicated as a shell. There are some rough edges in Unix, like handling spaces in directories, and I'm no fan of Bash as a scripting language, but I wouldn't say the basic model of the Unix command-line interface is overly complicated.

I addressed these points in one of my comments a while ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25305575

I admit that I'm kind of conflating the concept of a terminal emulator, a shell and a shell language, but the shell model has plenty to improve upon.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#325

Post by user-the-name »

dijit wrote: post #322
user-the-name wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've used and programmed computers for over three decades.

This will sound accusatory, but there is an allegory: "There are people with 30 years experience, and there are people with 1 year of experience repeated 30 times."

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25790033

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#326

Post by tartaglia »

DanielKehoe wrote: post #95
antisol wrote: post #36

>Why can't I write code inside my browser? um... because you didn't press ctrl-shift-I? But frankly, if you can't manage to install ruby and think $PATH is somehow complicated or scary, I don't want you writing code. So maybe it's for the best that you haven't discovered the developer tools built into every browser.

$PATH is complicated and scary for most beginners, just as math can be scary for many kids, especially if they don't have a good teacher. Do we say we don't want kids learning math? No, we need to be better teachers. There are so many people with great ambitions and ideas who just need good guidance. Let's help them, not dismiss them.

I’m a programmer but I still to Google how to edit the PATH in Windows. This is not a matter of teaching, it’s a matter of laziness. Open Google and figure it out. This is not math. You don’t need to understand why. You follow the tutorial and go on with your life. You’ll understand why PATH matters when you’ll need to. And before you reply with: then why not abstracting this stuff? That’s because most technical people don’t mind, and they know that defaults don’t always apply. Just like accounting software doesn’t explain every single acronym. It targets a different audience.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#327

Post by d3ckard »

user-the-name wrote: post #299
d3ckard wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You repeat the previous content without any example on how they are better. To you it seems that not having to use command line is an advantage. To me it's not, making your argument moot.

I am saying that if I were to use the command line, things would not be easier for me. Thus, the GUI tools I have are superior to the command line. I know how to use the command line. I could do it. But there is no reason to do so. It would not do a better job than the tools I have been given in the GUI.

That solely depends on your use case. There are three reasons to use command line and none of them has anything to do with being easier:

1. It's faster. You can(and will after some time) remember hundreds of different commands. That means that to make computer do something, you just need to type. Typing is usually way faster than clicking in GUI, especially for non-trivial tasks, which require moving through several layers of GUI.

2. It's scriptable. I can automate pretty much anything invokable from command line through.

3. It's gluable. I can connect output of the program to any workflow I imagine.

All of those are usually strictly worse in GUI. Of course, GUI has it's uses(analysing data is usually easier in graphical environment) and there is nothing wrong with your personal preference. I object solely to your qualification of CLI being worse just because of your own taste.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#328

Post by DanielKehoe »

wilsonrocks wrote: post #170

I agree with the other comments about the attitude of the post. But as they mention, it can be hard to install ruby/python. Node is normally much easier. I've given up on getting react native going on my personal laptop, and I do react for a loving.

To install Ruby, it helps to have a good guide (but, yes, sometimes they are difficult to find):

https://mac.install.guide/ruby/index.html

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#329

Post by user-the-name »

d3ckard wrote: post #327
user-the-name wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am saying that if I were to use the command line, things would not be easier for me. Thus, the GUI tools I have are superior to the command line. I know how to use the command line. I could do it. But there is no reason to do so. It would not do a better job than the tools I have been given in the GUI.

That solely depends on your use case. There are three reasons to use command line and none of them has anything to do with being easier: 1. It's faster. You can(and will after some time) remember hundreds of different commands. That means that to make computer do something, you just need to type. Typing is usually way faster than clicking in GUI, especially for non-trivial tasks, which require moving through several…

I am well aware. And I am saying that none of those are easier than the GUI tools provided in this case.

Sure, in some cases, those are useful. But not always. And programming, in general, is not really a case where those things are useful on a minute-to-minute basis.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#330

Post by tommilukkarinen »

GuB-42 wrote: post #187
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

I think the author is not talking about career programming. If that's your job, you have no excuses not learning command lines and all the other stuff. This, I think, is more intended for people who are not really programmers, but would like to write a bit of logic, and find themselves with tools intended for professionals. Because I am an experienced programmer now, I may be biased but I have a feeling we raised the…

When you put it this way, it makes perfect sense. My first computer C64 came with Basic pre-installed and that's how an eight year old learned to code. I guess the equivalent would be, that there would a button 'code' on the browser UI, and that would lead the user onwards.
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