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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#491

Post by virgil_disgr4ce »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #467
marcus_holmes wrote: post #443

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet... when Flash provided a simple, easy, way for people to get into coding using a GUI, there was an explosion of creativity. Flash was terrible for all sorts of other reasons. But it did demonstrate that there is a class of incredibly creative people out there who can create amazing things, but not on the command line, and not using the tools currently available. How do we get them doing that again?

Shut down YouTube. I'm serious. I don't think there can be another "explosion of creativity" of the (relative) magnitude of Flash, because people now express themselves by recording videos. It's both easier and more social than making interactive software, even with Flash.

That doesn't make any sense. You don't inspire creativity-explosions by shutting down existing platforms, you do it by providing new affordances, which is what Flash did. And videos aren't even interactive! There's not even any comparison here.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#492

Post by MaxBarraclough »

user-the-name wrote: post #445
MaxBarraclough wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Terminals of 2020 and beyond need to have first-class support for audio, video, images, and peripheral interactivity/customization. This shouldn't be supported in a first-class way, it should be supported as an extension where applicable, in keeping with Unix principles. We already have this with X11. > It should be possible to `cat` an image, or a video, or even previews of Word and Photoshop documents Again this…

"We have X11 for this" just means "we can't do this, use a different environment". The point is, we should not HAVE to use a different environment. Images and media should be first-class citizens in a CLI just as much as they are in a GUI. There is nothing about a CLI that says it has to only handle text.

> we should not HAVE to use a different environment

Breaking things down into meaningfully separated subsystems is part of why Unix has been successful. What you're suggesting would mean hugely increasing the amount of complexity in SSH. It makes far more sense to use SSH as the transport solution, using a separate system to handle drawing/windows/graphics acceleration/user input into the GUI.

Not all servers support a graphical environment, and neither do all clients. This allows for lightweight servers and lightweight clients.

> There is nothing about a CLI that says it has to only handle text.

The command-line itself should be a relatively simple canvas, not a complex rendering subsystem. It's already rich enough to support TUIs, including mouse-click support. If you want more than that, use a proper GUI.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#493

Post by forgotpwd16 »

modeless wrote: post #2

You can though. Chrome dev tools can edit local files. It's basically an IDE. You can easily build a single page application. You can even do some server-like stuff purely in the browser now with service workers. There are also plenty of online IDEs available spanning the gamut from toys to serious work environments.

>Chrome dev tools can edit local files.

For anyone that doesn't know that, open dev tools > Sources > Filesystem > + (Add folder to workspace) > right-click on folder > New file. Then double-click on file to open it for editing and save modifications with Ctrl-S. Of course it isn't an IDE, with even the editor being nothing more than a Notepad clone, and you're limited to client-side work which is in contrast to what OP seems to want.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#494

Post by imiric »

johannes1234321 wrote: post #385
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

Software development is hard and complex. We, as software industry at large, however should work on two fronts: - Try to make things, which can be simple simple. Many do that out of self interest, but sometimes one is so used to complexitiest, that one doesn't see them anymore and we often fear redoing grown things as "it works" and we might break use cases and we don't want to relearn things ... - There is a large r…

I've always liked this design philosophy by Alan Kay[1]:

> Simple things should be simple. Complex things should be possible.

[1]: https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-story-behind-Alan-Kay-s-ad...

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#495

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #490
user-the-name wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I am saying is, as soon as someone new to programming points out, entirely correctly, that the tools we use are weird, obscure and difficult to use for no apparent reason, programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. As is happening everywhere in this very thread. I am saying th…

> What I am saying is, as soon as someone new to programming points out, entirely correctly, that the tools we use are weird, obscure and difficult to use for no apparent reason, programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. If you are a beginner in some topic (any topic), and encount…

Except that many programmers, including parent, happen to agree that with what the beginner is saying. That it is so obviously true that even a beginner can see it is evidence that the people who can't see it have conflated the way things are with the way things need to be.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#496

Post by ekidd »

jdbernard wrote: post #403
zimpenfish wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> just like it's hard to become a good musician if you shy away from sheet music A bunch of world famous artists would disagree with you there. https://www.themusicstudio.ca/blog/2017/11/909/

Those are literal rock stars, people who's fame and proficiency at one very narrow thing has given them the clout to hire and work with people who do all the things they don't know how to do or don't want to know. They're the exceptions which prove the rule. If you want to be a professional musician who works with other people rather than just doing their own thing, you need to know sheet music, especially within cer…

I think you have a good point.

I know an fairly good amateur folk musician who can't read music at all. He relies entirely on his ability to learn music by ear. But he can usually play something after listening to it a few times, and he mostly plays solo folk music. So because he's talented and happy in his niche, he can get by without many typical professional skills.

Similarly, I know a CS researcher who hates to use anything but MatLab, and his MatLab code is not exactly an example of good software engineering. But he's published a stack of really great papers. He's brilliant and he works in a niche.

But the average novice would not be well served by imitating either of these people. They can do what they do because they're above average in specific skills, and because they've found a niche where they can thrive.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#497

Post by greggman3 »

GuB-42 wrote: post #187
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

I think the author is not talking about career programming. If that's your job, you have no excuses not learning command lines and all the other stuff. This, I think, is more intended for people who are not really programmers, but would like to write a bit of logic, and find themselves with tools intended for professionals. Because I am an experienced programmer now, I may be biased but I have a feeling we raised the…

I want the play the piano but don't want to put in the time. Answer "don't be lazy". I want the learn to dance but don't want to put the time. Response: "Don't be lazy".

What is special about programming that should be easy where playing the piano or learning to draw well is not? Maybe it's just fundamentally hard?

I'm not suggesting it can't be made more approachable for beginners and for small tasks but most non-trivial things someone wants to make, they have 1000s of questions that need to be answered and even more combinations. Making the tools better, for the most part, won't remove that complexity IMO.

Take the stereotypical "To Do" starter app. First you just have an array (db) of todos and they have title, text, done fields, and that's it. Then you add due dates, dependent tasks, assigning ownership for tasks, oh, you just made it multi-user, you now need login, ownership, editing rights, migrations when someone quits. You probably have user settings, machine local settings, user account setting, People want different displays of the data, sorted different ways, or with graphs. They need formatting for printing. You want notifications when a task gets reassigned but you don't want them notified on every device. Oh, suddenly you have users in foreign office, they need it localized., etc.. It gets extremely complicated very quickly.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#498

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

malux85 wrote: post #310
user-the-name wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I am saying is, as soon as someone new to programming points out, entirely correctly, that the tools we use are weird, obscure and difficult to use for no apparent reason, programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. As is happening everywhere in this very thread. I am saying th…

> programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. Nobody has said this to you in this thread, and the fact that you're acting like it is the only toxic thing here. This is called a straw-man logical fallacy, you misrepresent my argument so it makes it easier for you to attack. Nobody ha…

> I'm saying the tools are not weird if you understand them

No, they are still weird. They are only not weird if you've become accustomed to the weirdness.

I primarily develop on Windows, and when I come to Linux to work on things I am astonished to find that Linux developers think nothing of using upwards of half a dozen different languages to build one thing. CMake, autoconf, shell, and python all being used to build a single C++ program is weird and unnecessary. If you don't think so I submit you've merely become accustomed to doing things in this incredibly weird way!

PS: Windows has its own developer tendencies that are weird and unnecessary, but I will at least readily admit that about them.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#499

Post by na85 »

kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

I'm not a software engineer, nor a comp sci grad, nor a professional coder. I've ranted on HN about bad documentation in programming before (Lisp being a notable target of my ire recently), and I'm by no means an expert. But when you have someone who by his own admission can't install node.js, pip, or ruby and yet claims

>Because I love building things using code.

I mean, someone who "builds things using code" should be able to install ruby. I've never even attempted to use ruby, don't even know what its syntax looks like, but I guarantee you it can be installed by something akin to

    $ apt install ruby
I can't even fathom how a person who has allegedly built things with code can "try and fail" to accomplish this.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#500

Post by potta_coffee »

bambax wrote: post #487
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

He's not just lazy, he lacks some basic understanding: > Here’s my pitch: build a browser that comes pre-installed with node.js Okay, you don't have to know anything about JS or V8 or Node to live a normal life; most people don't and they're fine. But if you're going to complain that you can't "code in the browser" you should try to understand what you're talking about a little more. This sounds like an elaborate pra…

That one statement makes me almost convinced that this is satire.
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