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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#391

Post by jdbernard »

user-the-name wrote: post #321
malux85 wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> programmers will scream in rage that no, they are not, and by the way, you are stupid for saying it, you clearly have no idea what you are doing and you will never be a programmer. Nobody has said this to you in this thread, and the fact that you're acting like it is the only toxic thing here. This is called a straw-man logical fallacy, you misrepresent my argument so it makes it easier for you to attack. Nobody ha…

First you say nobody has called me stupid. Then in the NEXT PARAGRAPH, you tell me that I don't understand command line tools. I have been using them for decades. I know them very, VERY well. I am saying all of this from a position of long and deep familiarity with the tools. Yet immediately you jump the conclusion that I just don't know what I am talking about.

I think davorak is right, malux85 never says lack of understanding implies stupidity. I'd go even further. I don't read malux85's comment as an attack on your understanding personally. I read it as referring to people like the blog post author, who clearly don't understand the basics of the tools they're complaining about.

No one is screaming in rage about anything here. We do tend to get frustrated hearing complaints from people that are unwilling to take even the smallest amount of time to learn before complaining about the state of things.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#392

Post by protomyth »

edu wrote: post #221

The author is not talking about "professional programming" but about a field called "end-user programming" or more generally "end-user development", which is a whole academic field with the goal os allowing end-users to develop their own solutions. From this field came things like Scratch [1]. If you're interested a very important paper in that area (from the philosophical aspect) is "Meta-Design: A manifesto for End…

HyperCard, Excel, and (at the upper end) Flash are basically end-user programming that allowed for some really great creativity. I get the feeling most corporate programmers want to ban Excel and force the users to had over their code to have it properly programmed. The other two were gotten rid of. Instead of making easier and easier tools, we've gotten harder and harder. I still contend that NeXTSTEP was an easier programming environment than the web of today.

Javascript is not a beginner language anymore. It has a lot of edge cases and traps that defeat the average person.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#393

Post by growse »

user-the-name wrote: post #383
growse wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am well aware. And I am saying that none of those are easier than the GUI tools provided in this case. In your opinion Trying to project your personal preferences as objective reality is not helpful. You don't like CLIs, fine. You sound like you've got some good reasons to not like them. Your assumption that everyone else shares your values is a little weird. Personally, I love the CLI and have yet to find many i…

I have not once said I do not like CLIs. I use them all the time. But the fact remains, they are not useful when doing iOS programming, because the tooling provided does a BETTER job than the command line.

You don't think they're "esoteric and annoying" and have many "needless" problems? Or have I misinterpreted that?

> because the tooling provided does a BETTER job than the command line.

Once again, better for you.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#394

Post by marxplank0 »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #283
MarkusWandel wrote: post #264

A while back, I met a fashion designer who is also an expert seamstress. And I do believe most music composers can play the piano. You have to learn to walk before you can fly.

How many music composers have to build their own piano from a kit?

How many programmers have to create their own computer

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#395

Post by chme »

KronisLV wrote: post #375
chme wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But isn't using the code that people smarter/more proficient than you have developed a rather good way to go about things? One big task about programming is handling dependencies and thinking about assumptions. Before even beginning to write any code, you have to think about these things: - What environment do I expect the end user uses? Are there already some libraries I can use as well installed? - Do I need a GU…

That's a fair argument to make, however i'm not sure that i'm able to entirely agree to this. > While good developers think about each one and try to find a minimal set of them. (tl;dr at the bottom, things up to "In short, " are merely my experience, which is entirely subjective) For example, suppose that i'm working on a Java project and i want to do some non-trivial operations with the filesystem. In this instance…

All of those are very good points!

> In short, i don't think that how "minimal" dependencies are should be the deciding factor when choosing them, but rather the results of deliberation of the points that you've described above.

Well I said 'minimal set of dependencies' not 'minimal dependencies'. My text wasn't meant to make a point for small libraries or for implementing everything inside the project, but just to point out the important factor of dependency management as part of programming, which I felt was missing in this discussion.

Of course if there is some big framework that is well maintained, possible already used by other software components that might be already available on the device of the end user, fulfills all business/project requirements and you might end up using it for more the just one function, then great! That also means you might not add many other random small dependencies to dependency set, now or in the future and that set might stay minimal.

But if there is something that is not part of the big framework, and easy to get wrong, then of course you should add some dependency that does it for you under all these deliberations instead of trying, and possible failing, to do it yourself.

You should however step back from this and reconsider, if you start adding libraries for just string padding and the like.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#396

Post by lqet »

> Ok, once again. I can write code inside my spreadsheet but not inside my browser? WTF.

> Here’s my pitch: build a browser that comes pre-installed with node.js, an IDE and a simple runtime environment.

I don't understand the problem. Ignoring the node.js requirement, just open the developer console in Chrome or Firefox. There you have a powerful JavaScript REPL. There is also a ton of online REPLs, e.g. https://repl.it/languages/nodejs.

> Increasingly there’s a disconnect between the kinds of activities code enables and the “expected” workflow for “being a coder”.

What does that even mean? There is also a huge disconnect between the kinds of activities buildings enable and the expected workflow for "being an architect". Yet I don't hear an architect complaining that he cannot design a building simply by wandering through the Taj Mahal and thinking "wow, this really looks beautiful, I enjoy this!".

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#397

Post by cestith »

zimpenfish wrote: post #199
aspyct wrote: post #59

I feel like the author is confused between server-side and client-side development, and proceeds to say that programming is hard. He even goes on to quote himself (sigh) as a proof of what he proposes. Look, maybe someone just explained it badly to you, and you should look it up for yourself. However, if the command line looks scary to you... wait until you read bad documentation :) My point is: yes, programming is a…

> just like it's hard to become a good musician if you shy away from sheet music A bunch of world famous artists would disagree with you there. https://www.themusicstudio.ca/blog/2017/11/909/

In that article, none of the artists is quoted as saying what they did was easy. The previous article on the same blog said it's best to learn both playing by ear and to read sheet music, because without reading it's hard to play anything new you haven't heard.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#398

Post by iso1631 »

user-the-name wrote: post #104
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason. Programmers tend to get very proud of the completely pointless knowledge they have to acquire to use the pointlessly complicated tools they do, and they confuse that with being clever. It's not. It's really not. Nothing has to be this esoteric and annoying. We've just chosen to keep things like this because we th…

> The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason.

What are you trying to do?

Say I'm Santa and have a list of names in "naughtynice.lst", in the format

  Joey Bloggs,train,nice
  Johnny Doe,car,naughty
  Mary Lamb,car,nice
etc

I can get my shopping list by simply creating a file on my machine

  my $i = 0;
  my $toys = {};
  my $coal = 0;
  while () {
    chomp;
    my ($name, $toy, $nice) = split(/,/);
    if ($nice eq "nice") {
        $toys->{$toy}++;
    } else {
        $coal = $coal++;
    }
  }
  
  print "$_: ".$toys->{$_}."\n" foreach keys (%{$toys});
  print "coal: $coal\n";
and then typing

  perl test.pl naughtnice.lst
to run it. Python I assume is similar. I'm fairly sure that OSX comes with perl, python and bash if nothing else.

Now you could say that you don't like the syntax of perl, or python, or basic, or java, but actually knocking up a quick program and running is no harder than writing that same code in some hidden part of excel

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#399

Post by sirsuki »

"People hate command lines - not only do they LOOK scary, they give weird unhelpful error messages and… you have to type everything. Ugh."

Well, people hate graphical interfaces - not only do they LOOK scary, they give weird unhelpful error messages and… you have to click everything with a tiny pointer like you are fishing in muddy waters. Ugh.

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