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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#131

Post by null_object »

atum47 wrote: post #11

Are you aware of the console? I have used it for all kinds of stuff. Here's what you do: go to about:blank, open the console and start typing JavaScript code. Try: document.write('hello world')

> Are you aware of the console? I have used it for all kinds of stuff.

Sorry that (having posted the link) I don't have anything that concretely adds to the discussion, but I just thought I should point out that I'm not the author of the blog-article, as a few posters here seem to think.

I definitely don't endorse the author's views either, but I thought it was an interesting post for discussion, and I certainly don't think that making some aspects of coding more accessible is a bad thing.

edit: I just noticed the actual author is posting to the thread.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#132

Post by kichimi »

deepstack wrote: post #128
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

Thank you!!! Finally someone can say it. I've being extremely frustrated by developers who don't want to learn coding and just jumping on the band wagon cause it is the "IN" thing now.

That is the best way to describe it, it's a bandwagon, they've been told everyone can code, and when they find they can't, they believe it must be the programming ecosystems fault, and not that they just aren't suited to being a programmer.

There's nothing wrong with not being good at something.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#133

Post by madeofpalk »

> Ok, once again. I can write code inside my spreadsheet but not inside my browser? WTF.

The premise of his article is faulty because... you can code inside your browser. _They mention Glitch_, which lets you code inside your browser! There's things like CodeSandbox.io (and Github Codespaces coming whenever) that give you a full NodeJS environment and 'proper' IDE (VS Code) all in your browser and lets your deploy to a variety of production environments.

Downloading and running a node.pkg that installs all the command line tools seems pretty easy - there's nothing wrong with the command line, you've just got to learn it.

It's never been easier to code.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#134

Post by omegote »

The case here is that, if it were up to nowadays frontend developers, it would not be possible to write simple JavaScript code in notepad to quickly run in the browser. The frontend scene has evolved to become an unmanageable monster of cargo-cult programming, unnecessary complexity, infinite scaffoldings and huge node_module folders, and frontend developers are proud of that complexity. They enjoy running npm init and tens of initialization commands before even writing a single line of code of their own.

And all of that goes against the ease of access the OP post seems to request.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#135

Post by brazzy »

ccmcarey wrote: post #91
DanielKehoe wrote: post #77

The author is right when he says "coding is still too damn hard for beginners." That's because he's been led to believe he needs to install Node to join the "code club." Contemporary professional web development (as practiced by members of "the code club") is madness. We owe it to beginners to show there are easy, practical, sensible ways to get started. He needs to look at tutorials that show how to write code with…

> Contemporary professional web development (as practiced by members of "the code club") is madness In what way is it madness?

Take a look into your node_modules folder.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#136

Post by kichimi »

user-the-name wrote: post #106
malux85 wrote: post #88

If the author has “been playing with the web and code for years” and is still “wtf” on /usr/local/bin in $PATH it shows a lack of discipline and structure in their learning. I see this in many in many of my apprentices - the desire for instant gratification and the lack of experience means they refuse to do anything that doesn’t immediately proceed them closer to their goal. Here’s the thing with programming - you ca…

/usr/local/bin has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with programming. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. It is completely superfluous knowledge. It is only required because, as the author correctly points out, the tools we use are BAD. They are absolutely fucking AWFUL. /usr/local/bin is an implementation detail from an OS nobody has used for decades. It's still here because we refuse to fix these ridiculous things. Nobody sho…

The server you submitted your comment to uses this 'OS nobody has used for decades'. The OS you wrote this from, also uses this implementation detail.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#137

Post by collyw »

user-the-name wrote: post #104
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason. Programmers tend to get very proud of the completely pointless knowledge they have to acquire to use the pointlessly complicated tools they do, and they confuse that with being clever. It's not. It's really not. Nothing has to be this esoteric and annoying. We've just chosen to keep things like this because we th…

I am not sure how true this is. There have been numerous attempts at visual programming and they have generally turned out to be crap. Because syntax is actually a relativity small part of the problem.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#138

Post by Gehinnn »

cryptica wrote: post #72
aspyct wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think I've ever met anyone who was naturally good at thinking logically I've heard, though, that declarative programming (prolog, haskell etc) was a LOT easier for people who aren't trained in imperative programming. Whereas those who are actually have a hard time picking it up... As was my experience. @op have a look for declarative programming. You might like prolog :)

My main problem with declarative/functional programming languages is that they force developers to separate the logic from the state (they are not co-located based on concerns) and this often causes developers to neglect the separation of concerns principle altogether; which is by far the most important principle in my experience. Most developers never learned proper blackboxing/state encapsulation. It's impossible t…

Yes! Being able to hide state is a blessing but sometimes also a curse. However Monads kind of allow you to hide/abstract over state too. I find it way more difficult though.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#139

Post by izacus »

kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

Programming COULD use a lot of simplification and removal of barriers. But still, just like you, I really hate the base attitude here.

And for a different reason: I find that programmers who think like this, are also lazy when it comes to respecting the user. They're lazy when it comes to supporting accessibility. They're lazy when it somes to properly supporting i18n and making experience great for non-Americans. They're lazy when it comes to respecting privacy and not burning 8GB of RAM just to render a webshop frontend.

They'll say "this is hard" and add Facebook SDK to do things for them. They'll say "this is hard" and make the page inaccessible for people that don't own a 4000$ 16" MBP and has perfect vision.

That's the core issue of this attitude for me, which I'm seeing by too many people I mentor. Development is sometimes hard and requires hard work to do right by people.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#140

Post by Bombthecat »

user-the-name wrote: post #104
kichimi wrote: post #96

I try to keep my comments nice on HN but in this case I can't, I've met this kind of person many times now and I just can't hold back. The author is lazy, and is channeling his energy into complaining rather than learning. He believes he is by default an expert on the 'user friendliness' of programming. His comments don't really make much sense, and come across as whining that should be ignored. "People hate command…

The author is 100% correct on everything. Programming is massively over-complicated for no useful reason. Programmers tend to get very proud of the completely pointless knowledge they have to acquire to use the pointlessly complicated tools they do, and they confuse that with being clever. It's not. It's really not. Nothing has to be this esoteric and annoying. We've just chosen to keep things like this because we th…

You see that absolutely in every "new". Programming language. It starts simple, beautiful, easy to read and understand.

And 10 years later: people want ways to write a ten liner, in one line compressed.

The first one is easy to understand, easy to follow, the second one, not so much, even for the person who wrote it.. (after doing something else for a year for example)

I hate it...

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