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Why can't I write code inside my browser?

tomcritchlow.com

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Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#61

Post by cryptica »

aspyct wrote: post #59

I feel like the author is confused between server-side and client-side development, and proceeds to say that programming is hard. He even goes on to quote himself (sigh) as a proof of what he proposes. Look, maybe someone just explained it badly to you, and you should look it up for yourself. However, if the command line looks scary to you... wait until you read bad documentation :) My point is: yes, programming is a…

This is a variant of the no-code mindset where people expect coding to be easy.

What they don't understand is that tools which aim to make coding easy or automatic don't add any value if the person using the tool doesn't understand all the nuances in the underlying logic which is being produced. Fully understanding the distinction between client and server is one such nuance.

When it comes to coding, the bottleneck is essentially never the tool, it's almost always the person.

I don't think I've ever met anyone who was naturally good at thinking logically. Working close to the hardware and then working your way up the stack is one of the best ways to develop the required level of nuanced logical thinking.

The problem with no-code, low-code or tools which try to move away from the underlying reality is that they don't train your logical thinking skills.

In my view, tools should help people develop into better programmers, not give an illusion of ease and mastery when it is not deserved.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#62

Post by kodoque2 »

dbsmith83 wrote: post #15

The whole sentiment of this article just comes off a little whiny to me. Nowadays there is so much more information available for learning how to code and set up your dev environment. There are literally coding books for kids at book stores. And StackOverflow! When I was younger, one had to search high and low on the net trying to find help using shitty dial-up service. Then, you'd end up in some IRC channel asking f…

If this is the case, it is because people were conscious that there was in issue in how computer turned into more and more as an appliance mean to consume information [1] (The C64 had a full programming manual delivered with it, booted directly to an interpreter and even had schematic of the machine reportedly!) and tried to counter it.

Even then despite all the amazing ressource available, there is a risk of digital divide between people having access to tutor that can show the good ressource (because there is a lot of bad ressource!) and isolated people that are stuck with glorified engagement platform.

[1] https://www.salon.com/2006/09/14/basic_2/

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#63

Post by aspyct »

colordrops wrote: post #60
aspyct wrote: post #59

I feel like the author is confused between server-side and client-side development, and proceeds to say that programming is hard. He even goes on to quote himself (sigh) as a proof of what he proposes. Look, maybe someone just explained it badly to you, and you should look it up for yourself. However, if the command line looks scary to you... wait until you read bad documentation :) My point is: yes, programming is a…

Could you elaborate on which UIs for machine learning you are referring to?

I'm thinking in particular about Kibana (part of elasticsearch stack). I used it, it's absolutely awesome. It's a paid feature though.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#64

Post by hathym »

meekrohprocess wrote: post #5

I'm curious if the author has heard of sites like: * https://repl.it/ * https://jsfiddle.net/ I didn't see anything like that mentioned in the article, but I think that you can easily write code inside your browser today. Also, web browsers are already extremely heavy and complicated. That complexity is convenient for end users, but it also has costs, like making it very difficult and expensive to create a new compet…

or cloud9 https://aws.amazon.com/fr/cloud9/

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#65

Post by kodoque2 »

taneq wrote: post #38
catlifeonmars wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s all about reducing the barrier to entry. Many people find the command line daunting. Why not reduce these barriers to entry? Why require someone to understand $path to start coding in JavaScript?

I guess it's possible that new aspiring programmers will gain the fortitude to read documentation after a little while programming, but I can't help feeling that if someone isn't able to type "computer path" into a search engine from the start, they probably won't be able to figure out a whole lot of programming.

I learned programming on my calculator precisely for this reason, no cruft just pure code.

And for an inquisitive mind, having to type arcane command just to get the desired result is incredibly frustrating, and I don't count mindlessly browsing stack overflow or the internet just to get the stuff I need as learning. That is why course such as nand2tetris are incredibly good.

There is still an incredibly lot of stuff that can be done in matter of computer education. My dream would be a time travel libvmi based educational tool that allow to drill all the various function augmented with built in interactive explanation a la explorable and various code vizualization.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#66

Post by rgoulter »

catlifeonmars wrote: post #33
tidenly wrote: post #26

Not all documentation should be aimed at an absolute beginner - the authors point about $PATH seems moot to me, especially considering how easy it is to look up. Should a library also explain how an async function works in JS when introducing its feature that uses promises? Of course not. Any field requires technical knowledge, and we're lucky we live in a world where its increasingly easier to overcome any roadblock…

It’s all about reducing the barrier to entry. Many people find the command line daunting. Why not reduce these barriers to entry? Why require someone to understand $path to start coding in JavaScript?

My experience with programming, especially when I'm trying something new, is that about a dozen different things will go wrong.

At some point, there's some level of problem-solving required which involves taking what you know, and figuring out why it doesn't work. - One extremely common way of finding out what doesn't work is searching the web for the error you get, and finding a StackOverflow page which might be enough to explain it.

My experience was that I can "get by" without a deep understanding of some thing, until it doesn't work, then I need to poke around to get a better understanding so that I can fix whatever problem I have.

IIRC, I bet you can get decently far on the command-line without having to know what PATH is (or all the places it's set), thanks to package managers making things accessible. And then you'll run into some problem so that you need to know what PATH is, and then you'll learn.

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#68

Post by gspr »

dbsmith83 wrote: post #15

The whole sentiment of this article just comes off a little whiny to me. Nowadays there is so much more information available for learning how to code and set up your dev environment. There are literally coding books for kids at book stores. And StackOverflow! When I was younger, one had to search high and low on the net trying to find help using shitty dial-up service. Then, you'd end up in some IRC channel asking f…

> Then, you'd end up in some IRC channel asking for help and someone simply says 'RTFM!'

I had such a delightful retro experience the other day! I had spent days fighting a segfault in a widely used, mature library. Naturally, me being new to the library, and knowing that it's mature and widely used, I assumed I was doing something wrong. No mention of the problem online. Crickets in my StackOverflow question for days. In the end, my last ditch effort was to find some of the devlopers on IRC (I hadn't used it for a decade). I was ready for the "RTFM!!!" telling off of my childhood.

But no. People were super helpful. Helped me debug and explain what the library was doing. Turns out it was a bug in a little-used corner of the library afterall! It had lingered there unreported for 3 years. 10/10, would IRC again!

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#69

Post by aspyct »

cryptica wrote: post #61
aspyct wrote: post #59

I feel like the author is confused between server-side and client-side development, and proceeds to say that programming is hard. He even goes on to quote himself (sigh) as a proof of what he proposes. Look, maybe someone just explained it badly to you, and you should look it up for yourself. However, if the command line looks scary to you... wait until you read bad documentation :) My point is: yes, programming is a…

This is a variant of the no-code mindset where people expect coding to be easy. What they don't understand is that tools which aim to make coding easy or automatic don't add any value if the person using the tool doesn't understand all the nuances in the underlying logic which is being produced. Fully understanding the distinction between client and server is one such nuance. When it comes to coding, the bottleneck i…

> I don't think I've ever met anyone who was naturally good at thinking logically

I've heard, though, that declarative programming (prolog, haskell etc) was a LOT easier for people who aren't trained in imperative programming. Whereas those who are actually have a hard time picking it up... As was my experience.

@op have a look for declarative programming. You might like prolog :)

Re: Why can't I write code inside my browser?

#70

Post by kodoque2 »

robjan wrote: post #44
csense wrote: post #34

A lot of you guys are hating on the author for not being able to figure out how to install Nodejs. Yet if you're old enough to have gotten started in the time of JavaScript in the late '90s, or QBasic in the early '90s, or systems like the BBC Micro or TRS-80 in earlier decades, you should know what the author's talking about. Everything you need to program is just there . It just works , there's no extra installatio…

That pretty much exists though. That's why Raspberry PI was invented and at the cost of $25 + a keyboard and mouse for the base model. If you want to pick up programming as a hobby, a hobby computer exists. If you want to get more serious eventually you have to learn your tools.

Raspberry is a far cry from ben upton desired goal, this is not a matter of price, it is a matter of a full environment geared toward learning.
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