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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#801

Post by alkonaut »

sidlls wrote: post #190
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I can understand this for oneself. But to be this complacent/indifferent to your kids' future is just kind of amusing to me. I haven't got billionaire status ambitions, but I also don't want my elder years to be effectively dictated by the vicissitudes of the political environment.

As a parent, is there really any difference between "saving for your own future" or "saving for your kids"? I do some saving for my future (e.g. retirement or rainy day) but I don't have specific savings for my kids, or any particular goals for such saving (such as enough for higher education). Lots of people here save money for their kids so they can get their first apartment which is suddenly really expensive. But I'd rather improve the house we live in now, or take them on trips, and if they need $20k down in 10 years to move out, I can probably solve that. I started with 0 savings from my parents, they started with zero from theirs, and so on. I don't know anyone who received a significant amount of money from their parents that wasn't an inheritance.

You can't count on politics being constant, but "there is a large welfare state here also in 15 years" I consider about as likely as the sun rising tomorrow.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#802

Post by imtringued »

arcticbull wrote: post #131
908B64B197 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. Now what happens if you include expats in the calculation? > makes it much easier to found and grow a business without the threat of death And yet you see a lot of Europeans and Canadians founders going to the valley for funding. Yet the opposite almost never happens.

> Now what happens if you include expats in the calculation? Pretty sure expats are included in Gini calculations. > And yet you see a lot of Europeans and Canadians founders going to the valley for funding. Yet the opposite almost never happens. Why wouldn't you raise money from where the money is? Inequality means there's a small handful of people with giant piles of money. That's a good bet to go knocking at if yo…

>I should also say, just because you raise money in the bay doesn't mean you have to run your business in the bay. Should you choose to do so remotely, you'll like take a bit of a discount, but it's worth mentioning this year's YC class was entirely remote.

I like this idea. Is this common? How many companies followed this strategy? It might have been remote but it is entirely possible that the companies will move to the bay area after receiving funding.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#803

Post by imtringued »

webmaven wrote: post #299
908B64B197 wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. Now what happens if you include expats in the calculation? > makes it much easier to found and grow a business without the threat of death And yet you see a lot of Europeans and Canadians founders going to the valley for funding. Yet the opposite almost never happens.

> > makes it much easier to found and grow a business without the threat of death > And yet you see a lot of Europeans and Canadians founders going to the valley for funding. Yet the opposite almost never happens. Just because it is easier to found and grow a business doesn't mean the environment is friendly to founding and funding a high-growth business. In fact, an environment that is friendlier to SMEs, lifestyle,…

I think in our current economical climate it is actually good if there are rich people willing to part with their money, even if it is just a moonshot. What I don't like is that the VC model often just devolves into the same boring strategy of outgrowing the competition. Lots of good companies died because of this and lots of bad companies are still alive.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#804

Post by a_imho »

atom_arranger wrote: post #371
ahupp wrote: post #222

Major US tech companies earn a profit-per-employee of $200-400k[0]. That's across every employee, so depending on how you attribute value the profit-per-SWE is much higher. That gives a lot of headroom to drive up salaries when competing for hires, and in part sets the market price. I suspect that low European software salaries are just a function of low profitability of European software companies. e.g, spotify is (…

This makes the most sense. Ultimately an employee cannot have a company paying them more than the value they generate. The value engineers for US companies generate is higher than the value engineers for EU/CAD companies generate, so they have a better bargaining position. This is probably because US companies have a bigger market to start in, and have been more successful at expanding into other markets (including E…

Plenty of US tech companies are present in the EU including FAANG, it is not like Europeans work exclusively for EU companies. Suppressed salaries are pure profit. $T companies not just come from nowhere.

https://elsajohansson.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/what-does-a-w...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#805

Post by imtringued »

arcticbull wrote: post #144
thinkloop wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The wealth inequality debate is about Bezos and wall street ceo's type thing - I don't think many people have issue with some making $50k and others making $200k.

Remember the whole drive to push all the Techies out of SF? Remember rocks getting thrown at the Google busses? It's both. At the end of the day Bezos makes headlines but his personal largesse has very little effect on most people in the country. It has very little impact on the lives of folks getting "pushed out" of SF. That's the folks he employs.

Those techies are often poor in their hometown. Many of them got a student loan, went to college, graduated in CS and then looked for a growing job market. Their own hometown offers maybe half the salary and some don't have any jobs at all.

They became rich the moment they entered the bay area. So hating on the "rich techies" is really misguided and will only further increase inequality.

Pushed out is a misnomer, really. If you have a booming housing market you should invest into more housing. These "rich" people will take the luxury apartments in 3 story buildings and the existing residents can keep their housing.

These things are not mutually incompatible. You just need to give one side what they need and they will leave you alone.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#806

Post by johbjo »

sajithdilshan wrote: post #668
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I got here by taking no risk at all. This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. Personally, I think this is the reason why there are less startups in Europe compared to US. No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary. > I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my coll…

> No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary.

It's mostly a rational calculation. Because of crab mentality and stigma of failure, the downside is worse in Europe. The expected value of risk is lower than in America.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#807

Post by chupasaurus »

selimthegrim wrote: post #662
chupasaurus wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I dont kniw what its like elsewhere "Efficient management" is a meme in Russian IT industry.

Is it like “British scientists discovered...”

Nah, it literally grew from managers bragging very often about how much efficient they are, even though the facts were showing the very opposite of that.

I'm surprised "British scientists" meme has a good Wikipedia article in English[0].

P.S. Runet's memepedia Lurkmore redirects from "Efficient manager" to Stalin page.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_scientists_(meme)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#808

Post by barnacled »

alkonaut wrote: post #557
barnacled wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think this is a completely wrong-headed way of looking at things. You are paid what you're paid not because the company is determining what is 'fair' given all of your circumstances, but rather the minimum they feel they can get away with. Nearly all employees would accept more pay if they were offered it, nearly all employers would pay less if they could - so like any market it is always an equilibrium be…

> rather the minimum they feel they can get away with. I completely agree. I certainly would accept more pay. But I wouldn't switch jobs just to get it . There are several reasons, most importantly that interesting jobs in my niche are scarce. So my employer has a resource that is perhaps scarcer than myself!. Second (and this is the part where it becomes self-fulfilling), because there are no super high salaries, I'…

Great response - I very much agree that from the employee's point of view you are always trading off a number of factors and they are by far not all about money.

My main contention really was with the assertion that you don't see why you should get rich - as if it were about what is deserved whereas of course it is a market where the correct price is the one people are willing to pay.

I myself trade off a number of factors in my career which don't equate necessarily to salary.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#809

Post by johbjo »

petters wrote: post #615
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. Sure, but if you are a really good engineer in software, someone is going to get "very rich" from your work. Why not (partly) you?

> Why not (partly) you?

The short answer is that he is replaceable, while the owners are not.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#810

Post by eecks »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement

Which country? You should definitely be saving for retirement

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