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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

> but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. Now what happens if you include expats in the calculation? > makes it much easier to found and grow a business without the threat of death And yet you see a lot of Europeans and Canadians founders going to the valley for funding. Yet the opposite almost never happens.

> Now what happens if you include expats in the calculation?

Pretty sure expats are included in Gini calculations.

> And yet you see a lot of Europeans and Canadians founders going to the valley for funding. Yet the opposite almost never happens.

Why wouldn't you raise money from where the money is? Inequality means there's a small handful of people with giant piles of money. That's a good bet to go knocking at if you want some.

Generally if you want to build a successful business you should raise on the best terms possible, and European investors are not known for offering particularly compelling terms.

I should also say, just because you raise money in the bay doesn't mean you have to run your business in the bay. Should you choose to do so remotely, you'll like take a bit of a discount, but it's worth mentioning this year's YC class was entirely remote.

I'm not sure this argument is connected.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is absolutely no way to get 500k/year from being just an engineer in Europe. I recall the React creator's base salary is 100k/year in London, and he works at Facebook.

It is absolutely possible at FAANG companies (eg partner level at MS, principal level at G) and other publicly traded (US) companies or startups. Most of it is in stock.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#134
One way things might become more competitive is when more people become freelancers. The freelance market is more volatile than the rigidly regulated traditional labor markets allowing for larger pay increases during good times (and also decreases during bad times), in general, it approaches a more realistic compensation of real added value.

Personally I've greatly benefited from becoming a freelancer in Europe and have never been one day unemployed since I started over 7 years ago (4 different customers in total). The significantly higher income (almost 3 times my old, already decently above average, _net_ income) royally compensates the lack of unemployment benefits or reduced pensions.

I feel that if more devs would become freelancers it would create real upward pressure towards compensation because compensation isn't entrenched in company policies and regulations.

One downside is the proliferation of those in-between rent-seeking businesses, they're probably needed to get started initially but they take huge cuts and have a lot of absurd contract requirements so it's wise to develop an active strategy to find jobs without them.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#135
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I make pretty good money as a consultant. Last year I had 180 hours of saved vacation time (4.5 weeks). I gave up 115.5 hours of that on January 1 because I didn't use it. I expect I will lose a similar amount on next January 1st. I did get 6 federal holidays off. I used a bit of vacation to also take the day after Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas, and New Year's Eve off. I paid $8400 in insurance premiums for…

$200k is £146k I've seen mid-level tech jobs in London banks for £146k which come with 34 days off including state holidays like new years day, christmas, etc £146k for a full time contractor on 226 days a year isn't that much at all - £650 a day, which is in the "Senior developer" range [0] With 30% tax in the US and the cost of health insurance, that would be $68,400 For a staff employee on £146k (which is quite ac…

>No idea what a HSA account is, I guess some form of pension plan?

I think the OP meant Health Savings Account, which lets you put money in pre-tax for certain medical expenditures. There is a limit and IIRC you lose what you don't spend. It's good if you have predictable costs, or you're saving to do an expensive procedure (friends have done this for lasik), etc. You pay the bill then submit a receipt to get reimbursed out of the account.

In the US these are now termed Flexible Spending Accounts, with subcategories of Health, Dependent Care, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexible_spending_account

It helps, but certainly a different attitude towards social safety nets, defense spending, etc would make a larger difference.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#136
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

I wouldn't call Canadian (or Fr or Se) wealth inequality 'low'. 'Why I can't afford a house', again is more a problem in Fr/De/Se than in US, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...

I don't know about the other countries you have mentioned but German residential real estate has very high levels of institutional investment and the legacy of rent control (famously, Berlin...although that changed a few years ago).

So you have very high wealth inequality, average German net financial wealth is equal to Greece and Germany has a significant number of billionaires, but you also have a system that fundamentally cannot be compared with the US. It just optimises for different things.

That being said, whilst recognising those differences, lower wealth inequality is not the result of most of these systems. Income inequality is generally lower but the cost of this is usually: low competition, high structural unemployment, weak unions, low levels of business creation...it isn't free. It is readly apparent from the EU that whilst the US has high inequality, it also has a far more dynamic economy that results in more people actually becoming wealthy (to take Germany as an example, most billionaires come from families that got rich in the 30s and inherited...the level of downward mobility is very high in the US) and higher levels of innovation.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#137

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

The wealth inequality debate is about Bezos and wall street ceo's type thing - I don't think many people have issue with some making $50k and others making $200k.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#138

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

The salaries aren't low because of equality though. You're just shifting the high earners from the people doing the work to the managers of the people doing the work.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#139
post #76

Do you mean a particular part of Europe? I only ask because there are more factors than salary. I have friends who have moved to work in France, Norway, and Germany. They do make markedly less than I do on my US salary. However, they also get: * Substantially more actual vacation time * Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage * Less risk/stress associated with job security * A very s…

Obviously it’s a personal choice as to what’s important, but the salary difference between the US and EU is still larger than any of the financial benefits to being in the EU. Getting 6 weeks of vacation instead of 3? I’d still rather take the extra $150k. Having to shell out $15k for healthcare each year? I’d still take the extra $150k.

I'm pretty much at the top end of the salary range where I live. I don't make an extra $150,000. I make a sizable amount. But outside of a few niche places and a few niche companies in those places, people aren't making an extra $150,000 in the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#140
post #111

One option is to emigrate to the United States, driving up pressure on the engineers who remain. My near-term ancestors all left Germany due to poor wages and a tendency for Bismarck to sacrifice draft-age men in wars, and while moving to the US helped their own status it also did a bit to increase pressure at home.

> One option is to emigrate to the United States Not an easy feat. Most would be reliant on the H1B program.

Which is not an issue for people immigrating from Europe.
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