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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#661

Post by theshrike79 »

erdo wrote: post #532
jtwaleson wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

France is really terrible in terms of SWE compensation. I think I know why. I've had some traineeship / internship requests from French students and their mentality seems so much more like "engineering" career trajectory than "hacker". Engineer: "yes, of course it is normal to be a trainee for 2 years, then a junior for 5, then a medior for 5 and of I'm really good I'll be a senior. I would be really thankful if you…

Well... just because a developer claims to be a senior engineer (with only 2 years experience) it doesn't actually make them a senior engineer, it makes them a bullsh*ter :D

Just like the fresh out of school CTOs and Principal Engineers in the US. Of course you get a fancy title, you're one of the founders in the company - it doesn't mean you know anything though =)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#662

Post by selimthegrim »

chupasaurus wrote: post #380
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'most were mediocre and doing jobs that could easily be done by local talent.' I think most people are mediocore, and doing mediocore jovs -thats ok Keep in mind that this allowed some compabies to afford half-decent engineers whereas they would nornally only be able to afford junior talent. Whether that works out to a net benefit is ofcourse debatable. I personally find that a lot on management of engineers in UK is…

> I dont kniw what its like elsewhere "Efficient management" is a meme in Russian IT industry.

Is it like “British scientists discovered...”

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#663

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

overscore wrote: post #634
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality False, this mechanism only prevents income inequality but not wealth inequality as existing wealth is not taxed much in Europe. For example, inheritances, assets and properties are not taxed much in Europe (people scream double taxation if you propose that) but income is taxed substantially so you'll never be able to save enough to catch up to the upper classes who own a…

This comment makes the mistake of treating Europe like a country, which it is not. > For example, inheritances, assets and properties are not taxed much in Europe (people scream double taxation if you propose that) but income is taxed substantially so you'll never be able to save enough to catch up to the upper classes who own assets. In Ireland, apart from relatively small tax-free thresholds (€335,000 lifetime from…

>This comment makes the mistake of treating Europe like a country, which it is not.

Of course it's not, never said it was but cherry picking countries with larger inheritance tax is also a mistake as you can't choose where you pay your taxes as an EU resident. You pay them where your main residence is.

So on the other side of the spectrum you have Austria which has high income tax (because socialism and income equality) but basically no inheritance taxes, and taxes on assets are levied on their original purchase price so you end up having countless residents who earn small incomes but are sitting on millions of euros of wealth due to exploding real estate values but only pay 5 Euros tax per year as that's levied against the purchase price from 60 years ago when their grandparents bought it for pennies.

So you end up with huge wealth inequality where even people with good incomes pay high taxes and are priced out of the real estate market if they don't come from families of means.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#664

Post by Jasp3r »

ako wrote: post #609
thomasahle wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. You can, if you give the other groups a ton of money too. Wages in Europe have stagnated compared to GDP [1] too, so it's not unreasonable to fight for higher wages. [1]: https://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/european-issues/0289-labour...

Everybody earning more will just lead to more inflation. I expect most of the additional pay will end up in higher housing prices.

Increasing wages for everyone doesn't inherently mean everybody will earn more. Less money will go to shareholders, decreasing inequality

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#665

Post by dgellow »

thesimon wrote: post #546
dgellow wrote: post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What locations are you considering? Because €100k/year in Germany is a really high income.

Still, buying a house for your family will be difficult in the main cities.

But almost nobody buy a house for their family in city centers. People rent/buy apartments, or just move a few kms outside and buy/build a full house.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#666

Post by nilsbrev »

In France, IT consuling and outsourcing companies are promoting wage dumping. It is not common to be an independant SWE, so consulting companies have a better supply when they hire, thus lowering the wages.

Now, cuturally speaking, in Europe the cult of principles and values reigns whereas in USA it's the cult of god and money (which both work together, cf Harari's thesis).

Interesting topic demanding hours of debate.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#667

Post by throwawayin12 »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

Right, if you don't value your work, why would anybody else?

I see this opinion a lot and I do take it personally.

I come from a workers family and getting into IT was hard. I still pay off a (small 10k) debt from university. It took me years to get into the industry, working for very little pay. All the while I didn't do anything for my pension. Now I have a good income, but income alone is not enough to buy a house near the city. Having a migration background in Germany might not have helped.

Do you really think engineers, bankers, administration, lawyers, teachers and real estate agents have it worse?

In an industry that's created to destroy jobs, why would I work for less?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#668

Post by sajithdilshan »

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

> I got here by taking no risk at all.

This is the most European thing I've ever heard. Most people would not like to take risks and would not even think about stepping outside of their comfort zone. Personally, I think this is the reason why there are less startups in Europe compared to US. No one would like to take a risk unless it's absolutely necessary.

> I have worked 20 years in the same job and so have my colleagues.

I do not mean to be offensive and I know everyone has their own cup of tea. But 20 years doing the same the job?? This would literally be death to me personally as a software engineer. Changing your job is part of your career growth in-order to expose yourself to new challenges, problems and new environments. Of course this comes with a risk factor and personally, this risk and excitement is what makes life interesting. I would kill my self if I got stuck in the same job for 20 years.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#669

Post by overscore »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #663
overscore wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment makes the mistake of treating Europe like a country, which it is not. > For example, inheritances, assets and properties are not taxed much in Europe (people scream double taxation if you propose that) but income is taxed substantially so you'll never be able to save enough to catch up to the upper classes who own assets. In Ireland, apart from relatively small tax-free thresholds (€335,000 lifetime from…

>This comment makes the mistake of treating Europe like a country, which it is not. Of course it's not, never said it was but cherry picking countries with larger inheritance tax is also a mistake as you can't choose where you pay your taxes as an EU resident. You pay them where your main residence is. So on the other side of the spectrum you have Austria which has high income tax (because socialism and income equali…

I didn't cherry pick anything. I chose the UK and Ireland as they directly contradict your statement that:

> False, this mechanism only prevents income inequality but not wealth inequality as existing wealth is not taxed much in Europe.

The E.U. is home to both the highest and lowest inheritance taxes in the world, and averages very close to the US. I think this adequately refutes your statement that "existing wealth is not taxed much in Europe."

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#670

Post by sokoloff »

taffer wrote: post #583
arcticbull wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're making 100K in California, your marginal tax rate is: - Federal: 24% - State: 9.3% - FICA: 7.65% (6.2% social security, 1.45% medicare) - SDI: 1% This gets you to 42%. Your employer matches the FICA payments too, so that's closer to 50% of your take-home pay. Once you make enough to pay off the regressive FICA taxes ($142K) you get bumped back down to "just" the mid-high 30% range briefly, until you hit $16…

Shouldn't that be 37%? 1-(1-0,24)*(1-0,093)*(1-0,0765)*(1-0,01) = 0,37

No. Those taxes are levied on the gross income, not on the net income after the previous tax has been applied.
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