Live data from Hacker News

Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

news.ycombinator.com

241–250 of 974 posts

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#241

One option is to emigrate to the United States, driving up pressure on the engineers who remain. My near-term ancestors all left Germany due to poor wages and a tendency for Bismarck to sacrifice draft-age men in wars, and while moving to the US helped their own status it also did a bit to increase pressure at home.

Pre Brexit, there was > 500 million people in the EU with free movement between member states, most tech companies still sourced a substantial number of their employees from outside the EU - some even had majority non EU tech employees. The only jobs filled by locals were those which had artificial cap on employee numbers and local regulations(accountants/legal) Whilst some of these engineers were A+ level brilliant,…

'most were mediocre and doing jobs that could easily be done by local talent.'

I think most people are mediocore, and doing mediocore jovs -thats ok

Keep in mind that this allowed some compabies to afford half-decent engineers whereas they would nornally only be able to afford junior talent. Whether that works out to a net benefit is ofcourse debatable.

I personally find that a lot on management of engineers in UK is shockingly inefficient. I dont kniw what its like elsewhere, but i recon average 'efficiency' is under 50%

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#242
post #222

Major US tech companies earn a profit-per-employee of $200-400k[0]. That's across every employee, so depending on how you attribute value the profit-per-SWE is much higher. That gives a lot of headroom to drive up salaries when competing for hires, and in part sets the market price. I suspect that low European software salaries are just a function of low profitability of European software companies. e.g, spotify is (…

This is the correct answer. To put it another way, US companies are more productive (in the economic sense) than EU companies, and that gap is even wider for tech companies (& those that rely heavily on employing software engineers). Putting aside the question of whether EU companies have higher overhead per employee (probably true on average), they also derive significantly less value from their employees. This is the same effect which explains why the few "big" tech companies in otherwise low-paying regions will pay above local market rates (e.g. Shopify, Spotify, etc).

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#243
post #223
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some paths are quota based by country of origin, so getting a green card is exponentially harder for a Chinese or Indian citizen than an Aussie, for instance.

> Some paths are quota based by country of origin Yes, but that has little effect on H1B visas. European applicants are in the same pool as everyone else. > getting a green card is exponentially harder Nobody mentioned getting a greencard, which is a problem in itself. Just a work visa. Which, if you're a European citizen, is dependent on a lottery. Yeah, it's easier for an AU citizen to get a visa (because there's a…

You quote me yourself saying ‘some paths’- I was deliberately excluding H1B and stating so.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently learned, people worked less when we were hunter/gatherer, had more leisure time. I don't want to skip on modern medicine and shit, but it does make you think... [*] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yocja_N5s1I

Most hunting species are only active a few hours, because most prey species are only active a few hours a day, because there isn't exactly an excess of food or personal security in nature. Gathering also doesn't make sense as a full time occupation, as most plant species only fruit / produce edibles infrequently, and even then you are competing with wild animals (birds eat far more from the local wild raspberry plant…

The guy in the video says people played, made art and fucked. Humans are not predators, we're opportunists by evolutionary trait turning hunters rather recently.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#245

Do engineers in Europe get as much of their comp in stock as the do in Silicon Valley? My hypothesis on why salaries have gone up so high here is if you want to hire folks away from successful companies, that success means their stock grant is likely worth loads more than it was when they signed on, which you now have to match to compete. If hypothetically every engineer at Apple hired in 2017 got $100k/yr (say $70k…

> If hypothetically every engineer at Apple hired in 2017 got $100k/yr https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple&track=Software%20Engin... ICT2: $165k ICT3: $214k ICT4: $315k ICT5: $440k ICT6: $681k Point: $100k/yr total comp is pretty low for Apple's standards.

Apple has only 16,000 engineers.

Landing a software engineering internship at Apple is extremely difficult. Landing a full time job as a software engineer at Apple is even more difficult.

The people we're talking about are a small caste of privileged individuals. Their salaries do not reflect the norm of othet software engineers in the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#246

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

As a software engineer your leverage should be higher than near any other profession. This is why SV engineers are paid handsomely. Your productive output eclipses that of any profession without force multipliers. Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).

> Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).

Why?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trives of neanderthals were very equal too. Obviously you have to compare apples to apples

Read "Sapiens" 35 hour working week as a hunter gather is far preferable to the 60 + home chores of the homo softwaricus.

Sprain an ankle and you’re out of food that week.

Break a leg, if you’re lucky, you’ll a burden for s month.

On the other hand, your teeth may be healthier than that of people who gulp sugary drinks.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#248
post #225

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

You are taking a risk. The risk is that you assume your government will be able to provide you with a comfortable life even when you can no longer work. And when the time comes for your children to get higher education and retire themselves eventually you hope the government will also be there to step in. It works, until it doesn't. In America you can compensate yourself for this risk by simply getting a job where yo…

This "every man for himself / kicking down the ladder behind me" attitude is exactly the reason to leave America. If you slip through the cracks by no fault of your own (e.g. covid), you have no safety net to keep your life and finances from spinning out of control.

> In America you can compensate yourself for this risk by simply getting a job where you are paid a higher salary than the average.

Oh wow! If I want a more secure life, I'll just get a higher paying job. I didn't think of that before!

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read "Sapiens" 35 hour working week as a hunter gather is far preferable to the 60 + home chores of the homo softwaricus.

I would way rather program 60 hours a week than live as the hunter-gatherers did.

I am not sure, in there own world some tribes might have been far happier than 95% of society is today

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#250
post #57

Just like anything worthwhile is done: through free market competition. Build a successful startup, make some nice money and attract the best in the business to work for you by making them eye-popping offers. This will make your competitors react by raising their pay and with it the whole market. It’s how Silicon Valley reached those salaries after all...

I mean, it's not a great way to raise the salaries of retail and restaurant workers. It's also a terrible way of providing healthcare. Ultimately it's more a question of supply and demand as to why US SWEs are paid so much.

It's a pretty great way to provide healthcare, actually. My understanding is that european countries have pretty significant income taxes.
Post reply on HN