Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#621

Post by sverhagen » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:54 AM UTC

piva00 wrote: post #574

cjblomqvist wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure about that? Sure, not the top elite, but there's still a significant gap between upper middle class and lower in for example Sweden, which I believe is one of the more equal countries. FAANG level salaries would significantly widen that gap.

Agree with this take, being in the upper 10% of salaries in Sweden gave me perspective on how wide of a gap there is between myself, some friends working other office jobs (accountants, architects) and some in more blue collar work. I don't feel like I deserve a much higher salary than what I have for this society, I'll be honest and say that sometimes I feel ashamed of earning so much more than some friends given th…

Being from the Netherlands, I recognize this shame. High positions in the workforce are often shamed, talked about as "easy money", as if it's inherently corrupt, people don't acknowledge their risks and responsibilities. Whether that warrants those high salaries or not, I'm not commenting on that debate. Public functions or private organizations in which the government invests, must cap salaries at what the prime minister makes, which is "only" around 200k euros, a fraction of what american CEOs make. This includes public television talent; imagine your US network television nightly news anchors being capped at 200k. (I understand those are private, just making the comparison because they're the highest watched shows in either nation. Private television in the Netherlands is not subject to the cap, but also has not the highest ratings.)

Now that I live in the USA, I've never heard anyone talk like that about a successful CEO. Envy yes, aspiration too, admiration yes.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#622

Post by atomashpolskiy » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:56 AM UTC

sidlls wrote: post #274

arcticbull wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of folks here are calling out the lower pay for SWEs in Europe and Canada as a failure - but also praise the low wealth inequality and low income inequality in Europe and Canada. You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money. Well, this is a lot like the housing conversation in the US. "I want my house to go up in value, and be a great investment!" Also: "Why…

Paying laborers more does not lead to the kind of inequality we see. "You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money." Very few of even FAANG-level salaries are high enough to put them in the same bucket as the people who wield power through their wealth. Paying the entire field of SWE laborers even 50% more salary is not going to appreciably change the inequality g…

Given that in modern economy it's insurmountably more difficult to earn first million than the next ten, 50% increase in SWE salary would give a huge advantage and produce non-linear effects on inequality gap.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#623

Post by ronyfadel » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:56 AM UTC

knuthsat wrote: post #603

ronyfadel wrote: post #589

Start contracting remotely for US based companies. For them, you’re cheap(-er) labor, for yourself, you’ll make more than what you used to make in Europe.

Not cheap if USD keeps falling compared to EUR. My income dropped about 12% since the last peak. Not that I'm complaining, but given the current USD circulation I'm thinking it might lose 50% of value in the next years.

It should self regulate, once American exports become cheap again.

12% is not much, the USD has had its ups and its downs in the last 20 years (compared to the EUR).

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#624

Post by collyw » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:56 AM UTC

fulafel wrote: post #401

throwaway894345 wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s risky about the investment? I’m of the impression that real estate is one of the more stable investments, subprime mortgage scandals notwithstanding.

What isn't? Volatile market value, risks of breakdowns and fires and previously undiscovered structural flaws, fires, natural distasters, etc. It's putting a lot of your eggs in one basket, which in investment terms is same as foregoing diversification, ie taking on a lot of risk for no corresponding increase in returns. Depending on jurisdiction, risk of unfair treatment in a divorce. High transaction costs when cha…

How volatile is the housing market in Germany? And there are solutions to the other problems - getting the house properly surveyed before buying, insurance for fires.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#625

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

overscore wrote: post #614

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really true. Being a dev in sweden does not put you in the mid-upper class (lawyers, doctors, footballers, celebrieties, bankers, management consulting) FAANG salaries would help close that gap.

In Ireland, software developers with similar levels of experience earn significantly more than doctors, lawyers, management consultants and most bankers. There's only a tiny number of footballers, celebrities, bankers, and non-software consultants who earn more than the software developers as a class.

Except I wasn't talking about Ireland which has low taxes and high wages for sw devs compared to continental Europe.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#626

Post by mytailorisrich » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #378

adrianN wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Home ownership is strongly influenced by culture. Germans are just happier to rent. Buying often doesn't make a lot of sense financially either. It's not much cheaper to buy than to rent and you lose a lot of flexibility. I could afford to buy a house, but I don't want to. That would just tie up a large fraction of my wealth into one fairly risky investment and make it much harder to move when my life changes.

What’s risky about the investment? I’m of the impression that real estate is one of the more stable investments, subprime mortgage scandals notwithstanding.

> What’s risky about the investment?

The German population is shrinking.

Real estate as a safe and stable investment in the long term relies on steady population growth to insure that demand will always be there for you to be able to sell at a good price.

Of course, if you buy in the most desirable locations you may be shielded from this because demand outstrips supply by a huge margin to begin with.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#627

Post by iso1631 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

sguo35 wrote: post #212

iso1631 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Lower income tax Why would that increase gross salaries? > Lower corporate tax Why would that increase gross salaries? Corperations pay the minimum they can for the product they get > Eliminate unnecessary regulation Well the UK has just created a ton, so that's unlikely to happen, but what specific regulation, and how does it keep wages low? > Improve English education They should try that in the States first > Ra…

Lower income tax allows high earning engineers to found their own companies and become angel investors. This builds the startup ecosystem and makes it more self sustaining; new startups receive angel funding from prior employees that are moderately wealthy, and when they get big they fund the next generation. A social safety net is not a substitute for this because you can’t invest government welfare into your compan…

Income taxes for a $500k/year person in California is $210k

Income taxes for a $500k/year person in Arkansas is $196k

Income taxes for a $500k/year person in the UK $220k - but that includes healthcare

Why isn't Arkansas the centre of the development world? Does skipping healthcare and increasing your takehome pay by 3% really make a difference?

sources:

https://goodcalculators.com/us-salary-tax-calculator/

https://listentotaxman.com/366000

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#628

Post by qwytw » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

cjblomqvist wrote: post #426

sidlls wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying laborers more does not lead to the kind of inequality we see. "You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money." Very few of even FAANG-level salaries are high enough to put them in the same bucket as the people who wield power through their wealth. Paying the entire field of SWE laborers even 50% more salary is not going to appreciably change the inequality g…

Are you sure about that? Sure, not the top elite, but there's still a significant gap between upper middle class and lower in for example Sweden, which I believe is one of the more equal countries. FAANG level salaries would significantly widen that gap.

Interestingly while income inequality in Sweden is fairly low, wealth inequality there is one of the highest in the world and higher than in the US (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_eq...)

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#629

Post by syats » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:58 AM UTC

I would like to pose the question: why do you think these salaries have to increase?

I work in Europe in a SW company, earning a well above country-average salary (around 2.5x). I live quite well. My colleagues live quite well. The company is doing quite well.

Do keep in mind, that every extra euro that ends up in my savings account, is an euro that is not ending up in someone else's wallet in the country where the customers are. That is, if my company decided to raise our salaries, the customers would have to raise prices on their customers, and so on, I would have more savings, but someone else wouldn't be able to have a coffee or pay their tuition money.

Why then, would we want the already well above average salaries raised?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#630

Post by burntoutfire » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:59 AM UTC

offby37years wrote: post #120

alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

As a software engineer your leverage should be higher than near any other profession. This is why SV engineers are paid handsomely. Your productive output eclipses that of any profession without force multipliers. Your income should not be based on input (risk, comfort), but rather your output (scale, value).

I think it's just a story that software engineers like to tell themselves to feel better about earning more than almost everybody else. Meanwhile, there are plenty other "force multipliers", who are paid a pittance. Even a cleaner is a "force multiplier" - they enable people not dying from diseases coming from dirt - that's much more in terms of multiplying output than we do (without cleaners, everybody dies and there's zero profit).