Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#571

Post by alexchamberlain » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #553

alexchamberlain wrote: post #527

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. In the UK, at least, I'm not sure this is still true. On retirement, I planning on getting nothing from the government once I get there, and it's looking increasingly likely that I won't be allowed to retire until slightly later in life. That being said, I have paid off my student loans in less tha…

> On retirement, I planning on getting nothing from the government once I get there In the UK ever less is expected of the government. I keep reading "I don't expect a state pension" on the Internet. Of course, some people look at the finances and economic outlook and arrive at that conclusion on their own, but I feel a great many others are being primed for this situation. We just expect to be screwed by our governm…

I'm not sure what the right balance is, but I feel there is a slight aspect of _we can't have it all_. We're not prepared to have a debate in the UK about what the NHS should and shouldn't do, yet at the same time people are living longer and want to pay less tax. Something has to give.

Tbh, I'm happy to save for my retirement, but I'm slightly biased towards a slightly less welfare society (though not as far as removing essential support and health care). I can choose to save more now for an earlier retirement, for example. I think the auto enrollment has gone a long way there.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#572

Post by hallqv » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

European software companies are generally creating less value compared to US ones. Market cap of big tech companies in Europe vs US is probably the best proxy for that.

Makes sense that less value will trickle down to employees IMO.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#573

Post by tsjq » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

Stop accepting low salaries. Do not allow the H1B-kinda cheap-labour visa for tech workers. Perhaps be extra careful with those tech-body-shop companies like IBM, Accenture, Cognizant, Wipro, HCL, TCS , Infosys, and their smaller siblings

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#574

Post by piva00 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

cjblomqvist wrote: post #426

sidlls wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying laborers more does not lead to the kind of inequality we see. "You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money." Very few of even FAANG-level salaries are high enough to put them in the same bucket as the people who wield power through their wealth. Paying the entire field of SWE laborers even 50% more salary is not going to appreciably change the inequality g…

Are you sure about that? Sure, not the top elite, but there's still a significant gap between upper middle class and lower in for example Sweden, which I believe is one of the more equal countries. FAANG level salaries would significantly widen that gap.

Agree with this take, being in the upper 10% of salaries in Sweden gave me perspective on how wide of a gap there is between myself, some friends working other office jobs (accountants, architects) and some in more blue collar work. I don't feel like I deserve a much higher salary than what I have for this society, I'll be honest and say that sometimes I feel ashamed of earning so much more than some friends given that my job isn't really that important for society.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#575

Post by hobbescotch » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

oaiey wrote: post #509

kodah wrote: post #191

Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) Americans want their fair share of the…

> Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability Do not bet on your money when your government goes down. In the current situation (China raises, switching of federal reserves from the Dollar to a more diverse bucket, a US Capitol invaded), the dollar went down from its 100% safety in the 90s to a shaky 90% currently. And that can spiral quickly when something ra…

I’m curious to read more about this currency safety metric. Where do you find this?

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#576

Post by icelancer » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #200

ricardobeat wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as my experience goes, managers make about the same, or less, as an engineer at a similar experience level. They may end up at a higher compensation level if far enough in the career ladder, but I don't think it's significant in the bigger picture. The average CEO earnings in the Netherlands, including bonuses, is only 5x-6x the average engineer salary.

So maybe the real answer to the question is that European tech companies are just not making a lot of money?

They don't by and large. Listing the top 50 tech companies in the world by revenue will show that the US dominates it.

The few that appear on the list pay FAANG-level salaries for the most part.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#577

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:15 AM UTC

cjblomqvist wrote: post #426

sidlls wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying laborers more does not lead to the kind of inequality we see. "You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money." Very few of even FAANG-level salaries are high enough to put them in the same bucket as the people who wield power through their wealth. Paying the entire field of SWE laborers even 50% more salary is not going to appreciably change the inequality g…

Are you sure about that? Sure, not the top elite, but there's still a significant gap between upper middle class and lower in for example Sweden, which I believe is one of the more equal countries. FAANG level salaries would significantly widen that gap.

Not really true. Being a dev in sweden does not put you in the mid-upper class (lawyers, doctors, footballers, celebrieties, bankers, management consulting)

FAANG salaries would help close that gap.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#578

Post by sbt » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:16 AM UTC

Salaries in the US are not that much higher than in western Europe if you exclude Big Tech. Curbing the power of Big Tech is pending a new international tax agreement (don't hold your breath).

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#579

Post by physicsguy » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:18 AM UTC

suscitate wrote: post #167

While I think that lower salaries are a result of multiple factors, one interesting data point is that governments actively disincentivize high salaries for workers through taxation, and low salary requirements for visas. For example, the "high" salary tax income bracket starts at £50k in the UK [1] and at €54k in Germany [2]. More or less, these rates are similar across western Europe (except for Switzerland). In th…

Yeah, there's also serious disadvantages to taking > £100k salary in the UK because your marginal tax rate hits 60% as the personal allowance is withdrawn.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#580

Post by ChuckNorris89 » Thu, Jan 14, 2021, 9:18 AM UTC

frombody wrote: post #321

sidlls wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paying laborers more does not lead to the kind of inequality we see. "You can't have low inequality by definition if you decide to start paying one group a ton of money." Very few of even FAANG-level salaries are high enough to put them in the same bucket as the people who wield power through their wealth. Paying the entire field of SWE laborers even 50% more salary is not going to appreciably change the inequality g…

Marginal tax rates are much higher in Europe at lower levels, so in order to pay someone 50% more, you would have to pay them 100% more for them to get a 50% pay increase to make up for the money taken by taxes (the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality)

>the mechanism that prevents wealth inequality

False, this mechanism only prevents income inequality but not wealth inequality as existing wealth is not taxed much in Europe.

For example, inheritances, assets and properties are not taxed much in Europe (people scream double taxation if you propose that) but income is taxed substantially so you'll never be able to save enough to catch up to the upper classes who own assets.

So actually, in some European countries, while having low income inequality because of high income taxes, you end up with huge wealth inequality due to untaxed inheritances, assets and overvalued properties rolled over across multiple generations to the point where Germany's top 10% own two thirds of the country's wealth:

https://www.iamexpat.de/expat-info/german-expat-news/germany...

To level the playing field and reduce wealth inequality, a sound policy would be to tax income less and tax inheritances and assets more but fat chance of that ever happening as that would be a blow to the ruling class.