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Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

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Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#261

Post by benrbray »

kodah wrote: post #191

Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) Americans want their fair share of the…

> Compensation is more than just money to us. It's vacation, stock, better healthcare, expanded education resources and benefits, buying programs, etc... This can be both good and bad.

I don't think this is the right take at all. They way I see it, Americans want to get rich so they have access to the same quality of education / healthcare and leisure time / stability that the average (western) European has by default. Americans fight for scraps.

For instance, look at the list of minimum annual leave by country [1], or countries by infant and under five mortality rate [2], or education rankings [3], or countries by traffic-related death rate [4].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_an... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programme_for_International_St... [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-r...

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#262

Post by blunte »

westoque wrote: post #238
blunte wrote: post #234

I too lament the comparatively low tech salaries in Europe. But I suspect the comparatively higher quality of living keeps us happy enough that we won't move (back, in my case) to the US for just more income. That said, this new +remote world is providing new salary competition from US companies who do pay more but don't require moving to SF for example. Even so, the work-life balance here is much better than in the…

> What does bother me a bit is seeing managers who frankly use less of their brains getting paid as much or more. The statement "use less of their brains" does not necessarily do managers justice. Managers are good at (guess what) managing people, and that takes relationship skills that some people might not have or not good at. Having being both a software engineer and a manager, I would say it takes some special sk…

Good managers are very much worth their salaries. I daresay that good managers are more rare than good software developers. Or rather, a mediocre software developer can accomplish more than a mediocre manager, since the managerial job is tougher. But good managers are rare in my experience.

Mediocre or bad managers make a lot of less than ideal decisions, and those decisions ripple through the entire system. There is no test framework or CI/CD system to catch manager mistakes, and few companies have a rigorous measurement/feedback system.

The best (tech) managers are the somewhat rare group who not only have a good grasp of technical issues (and ideally have solid experience as developers), but they also have good interpersonal skills and empathy. In my experience, the good soft skills managers rarely also have comparable tech skills. And the reverse group make horrible managers and tend to burn out very quickly.

Measuring performance of managers is much more difficult than measuring performance of developers. As such, poor managers can exist indefinitely at some companies, ironically because their own managers may not be good at measuring and identifying bad decisions. This often goes all the way to the top.

Finally, CEOs are terrible examples. More than any other title, CEO is an echelon which once reached, by whatever means, seems to ensure that the title holder can almost do no wrong.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#263

Post by refurb »

rconti wrote: post #230
codeisawesome wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s mind blowing

That's the way it used to be in the US, too.

That’s the way it is still. Don’t assume because a handful of Fortune 500 companies pay tens of millions that’s a typical CEO salary in the US.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#264

Post by ulfw »

irrational wrote: post #171
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

I graduated with 2 bachelors degrees and a masters degree with no debt through scholarships and grants. I have saved nothing for my children’s education. If they want to attend college, it is on them to pay their way just as it was for me. I’ve told them that I will help a bit during their first year. My company matches my retirement savings up to 5%. I save nothing else for retirement. I should have millions of doll…

Yea I am sorry but earning millions for 20 hours of work a week isn't normal in any kind of job I've seen. So count your blessings and luck. Normal this ain't.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#265

Post by marcinzm »

trcollinson wrote: post #162
marcinzm wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>* Substantially more actual vacation time This depends on the company, last startup I worked at gave me around 6 weeks of vacation per year not counting holidays. Of course I got paid less than FAANG but still better than Europe even without the equity. >* Substantially cheaper and yet similar health, dental, and vision coverage I have heard a lot of people in Europe (UK and Germany) complain about issues with getti…

I guess my point on vacation is more around the culture of using it. As a senior level engineer/architect with maybe a small team leading role, when was the last time you took a solid 2 week off without anyone calling you for work? Heck, look at the number of unlimited PTO companies out there where employees never take a day. Just as an example. The experience my friends have in the EU seems to be pretty good over al…

The VP of Eng at my current job routinely takes a week off where he is utterly unreachable (I believe he literally went to amish country last time). The same applies to the rest of the engineering team. It's been the same at my previous two companies as well. No, it's not the norm at companies but there's plenty where that's the case.

In my experience, the US is a place where little is given to you but you can get a lot. But you cannot take anything for granted. If you value vacation then you need to grill potential employers on that point and be willing to take a job that pays less. Most people value money so if you value something different you need to be proactive about getting it.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#266

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

MuffinFlavored wrote: post #221
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #170

Do engineers in Europe get as much of their comp in stock as the do in Silicon Valley? My hypothesis on why salaries have gone up so high here is if you want to hire folks away from successful companies, that success means their stock grant is likely worth loads more than it was when they signed on, which you now have to match to compete. If hypothetically every engineer at Apple hired in 2017 got $100k/yr (say $70k…

> If hypothetically every engineer at Apple hired in 2017 got $100k/yr https://www.levels.fyi/?compare=Apple&track=Software%20Engin... ICT2: $165k ICT3: $214k ICT4: $315k ICT5: $440k ICT6: $681k Point: $100k/yr total comp is pretty low for Apple's standards.

Yup, and that was on purpose. If salaries were low (like in OP's area), then you'd see this rapid upward pressure, presumably contributing to a change towards the higher salaries you mention. The more relevant bit is probably whether I was way off on the percent split between cash and RSUs.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#267

Post by pavlov »

xwdv wrote: post #225
alkonaut wrote: post #55

I got my higher education for free. I expect to save nothing for my children or their education. I expect to have to put aside very little for retirement. The thing is, I just can’t find an argument why I should be able to get very rich doing my job. It’s a comfortable job. It pays a good salary. I got here by taking no risk at all. I wouldn’t want to switch jobs just to drive up my pay even if I could. I have other…

You are taking a risk. The risk is that you assume your government will be able to provide you with a comfortable life even when you can no longer work. And when the time comes for your children to get higher education and retire themselves eventually you hope the government will also be there to step in. It works, until it doesn't. In America you can compensate yourself for this risk by simply getting a job where yo…

I'm a European living in USA working for a FAANG. Frankly, my assessment is exactly the opposite from yours.

United States is the country that's most likely to go to shit. All of us wealthy professionals here are sitting on a powder keg of inequality and delusional politics, and nobody will be decoupled from it when it blows up.

I plan to stay for a few more years, then return to my safe North European home country with a solid stash of savings. My kids can go to good schools where teaching is in their native language. When they get older, they can go to free college if they're willing to put in the effort. When I retire, I won't need to worry about exhausting my savings because I've got a home fully paid and a sufficient baseline is guaranteed from the national pension system. There doesn't seem to by anything that would make me want to stay in America — perhaps the worst place on Earth to retire.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#268

Post by eloff »

arcticbull wrote: post #83
nickpp wrote: post #57

Just like anything worthwhile is done: through free market competition. Build a successful startup, make some nice money and attract the best in the business to work for you by making them eye-popping offers. This will make your competitors react by raising their pay and with it the whole market. It’s how Silicon Valley reached those salaries after all...

I mean, it's not a great way to raise the salaries of retail and restaurant workers. It's also a terrible way of providing healthcare. Ultimately it's more a question of supply and demand as to why US SWEs are paid so much.

This is it. It's not your other comment about equality. It's basic supply and demand.

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#269

Post by mlinksva »

topkai22 wrote: post #124

I unfortunately don’t have much perspective on software development on Europe, but one of the differentiators I’ve observed in the US between high salary SWE jobs/regions and lower SWE jobs/regions is that engineered in the higher categories are considered a core part of the business and are deeply integrated across the business. The engineers sit closer to and interact more with the “money people” than in companies…

That answer aligns with https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/what-silicon-valley-gets-... heavily discussed a few days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25717390

Re: Ask HN: How to increase SWE salaries in Europe?

#270

Post by refurb »

benrbray wrote: post #261
kodah wrote: post #191

Europeaners seem to think getting by is just fine. They're happy that they're hyper educated, that their kids are going to be hyper educated, that their healthcare is paid for, and they get lots of vacation. Because you can't save, you are entirely dependent, in a broader sense, on the government's stability (I am not using this sentiment in a pejorative sense like some might.) Americans want their fair share of the…

> Compensation is more than just money to us. It's vacation, stock, better healthcare, expanded education resources and benefits, buying programs, etc... This can be both good and bad. I don't think this is the right take at all. They way I see it, Americans want to get rich so they have access to the same quality of education / healthcare and leisure time / stability that the average (western) European has by defaul…

That explains the net flow of Americans immigrating to Europe and not the reverse.
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