Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#171

Post by dorchadas » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 7:43 PM UTC

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #130

dorchadas wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I'm a secondary school teacher, and I have tried this. Several times, with several classes (math and introductory chemistry/physics). The issue is the kids think of it as not having any work. So they do nothing while at home, which then means I end up having to teach the content anyway. It just doesn't work because the kids are responsible and refuse to do stuff at home, meaning I have to teach what they should've…

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you think it would be effective to segregate students by ability and/or motivation? That way you could let the motivated/interested/whatever students self-direct, and otherwise more efficiently spend your time with those who aren't self-motivated?

I think that's absolutely the key, honestly and it's why I'm a fan of AP/accelerated courses where at all possible. I also think ability grouping is great as you can work with students of lower ability without having to worry about those with higher ability being bored. I think that you need contact with those who aren't self-motivated, even if that's live classes they have to attend, as then they know there's accountability. But I do think that a good self-motivated learner, who knows how to learn would greatly benefit from just reading texts/watching quality videos (while taking notes) and having a teacher to basically ask questions to when needed.

Sadly, I'm not sure how much of the grouping I'd like to see is legal. I know my school got in trouble for offering 'Core' classes which were basically remedial education classes in core content areas (So you'd have 'accelerated algebra 2', 'algebra 2' and 'core algebra 2'), which worked as you could find ways to focus on real-life examples for those students, but gave rise to a host of other issues. But, overall, I see the only real way to do online learning entirely is through group segregation, at least at the secondary level. Hearing some of our AP teachers complain, it'd almost need to be a double split -- one on ability and one on motivation.

Of course, a lot of the latter, in my opinion, stems from the culture of the area. Sadly I'm in a rural area where well-paying jobs used to be plentiful right out of high school (or even without a degree!) and so a very anti-intellectual culture developed. Sadly, even though those jobs aren't present, the culture stays as most who have other values move out and leave. Me and a few of my colleagues (all from the area) are exceptions, but I know several of us would leave if we could. So you're also fighting a cultural battle on top of all the other stuff.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#172

Post by randcraw » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 7:51 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #42

slykar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

> Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! My wife is a professor. What you say is true for some students. But for some students it appears that paying attention is much harder when it is a video vs the same material presented in a…

I've attended both kinds of credit-granting uni courses, and I agree that watching a recorded video is indeed less involving. But video is also so much easier than a live lecture to stop, rewind, repeat, or play 50% slower/faster that I can't conclude either is clearly superior.

I'd say superiority mostly comes down to the quality of the instruction — clarity, good organization of fundamentals, then broad and deep enumeration of concepts that build meaningfully on those fundamentals. In my experience, few professors value teaching enough to master it. When one does, I'd very much like to be able to attend such a lecture.

Maybe the best of both worlds is to deliberately supplement primary content with outstanding reference material like Kahn Academy or Three Blue One Brown. Being able to drill down on difficult concepts from multiple perspectives is often a great way to resolve obstructions in any kind of teaching method.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#173

Post by randcraw » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 8:03 PM UTC

FuckButtons wrote: post #80

slykar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

My lived experience of pre recorded video lectures is they are a poor facsimile for the real thing for 3 main reasons. 1) I can’t ask questions - dynamically engaging with the material during the lecture is far more important for retention than making a perfect set of notes so not having that engagement really reduces your learning. 2) attention span / investment - taking notes amongst your peers who are also doing t…

True, but Q&A makes up a tiny fraction of most lectures I've attended, and attention span can be improved by shortening the duration of each lecture.

However, I'd agree that lack of dynamic peer interaction is a big problem with video-based instruction that hasn't yet been fixed. I've seen attempts to address this like Piazza where students can post questions or answer others', but text-based forums lack graphical or temporal cues that many concept demand. Maybe some sort of multiuser video supplement might help, where the question poser could snip the time mark of a puzzling section from the lecture or an illustration from another video and refer to it in source so others could visualize with a click the point being asked?

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#174

Post by randcraw » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #137

slykar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

>For labs it's not like you get any help either. That's never been the case in any of my lab classes from multiple departments. The whole reason you have TAs is so you can ask questions constantly and get instant feedback. Stuck on something during a lab? Flag down the TA and they will set you right. Drop your test tube full of precurser during organic chemistry lab on the floor? No worries, the TA appears moments la…

Yeah, it's tough to learn cadaver-based anatomy at home too.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#175

Post by trd123456 » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

Is there somewhere where I can get remote tutoring? Like have problem get help 1:1 or 1:4 from a tutor or instructor? That was always my biggest hurdle with online or book learning. If you didn't understand a concept or problem there were no real resources to ask. Writing out a problem in an online forum still might not be enough the personal discussion and interaction helps so much.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#176

Post by randcraw » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 8:15 PM UTC

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #141

slykar wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

>Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters But is that the default, common experience? I'm asking seriously: I finished my bachelor's 30 years ago and my master's 15 years ago and that has never been my experience. Our professors were actual people we talked and interacted with, even the boring ones. And they made an effort to teach. Now, I didn't go to a huge "research" university, wh…

Yeah, the best classes I've attended began with you reading material (textbook or papers) before lecture, then revisiting that content during lecture. Ideally the prof devises a lecture agenda where discussion revolves around subtleties in the material, both clarifying Q&A and implications and exceptions and to the material. Appreciating the context and relevance of your research-based material adds a lot to appreciating how it changed the status quo.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#177

Post by AnimalMuppet » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 8:32 PM UTC

mbil wrote: post #161

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two comments: First, what's OMSCS? Could you supply a bit more detail rather than just "have you heard of it"? What is it? What's good about it? Second, 5% acceptance rates are not typical of "the current university system". That's only a few "elite" schools. 40k/year may be more typical, but you can easily find less than half that.

OMSCS is Georgia Tech's Online CS Master's program[0]. I'm starting my ninth class this term. Here's my take... Pros: - video lectures are generally pretty polished, and include animations and other visual aids to help build intuition - the course material is mostly high quality. this is the same material that on-site graduate students are presented, and the graded projects are challenging. - there is opportunity to…

I would love for that to be available in undergrad programs, and in more majors than just CS.

Follow-up question: How hard is it to get into? Are there restrictions on how many students can take each class?

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#178

Post by jaggs » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

This question may be a tad premature. We are at the very beginning of a potential education revolution. What we are waiting for is the next 'Google'. This is an app/platform/system which will be so intuitive and accessible over remote tech that it will instantly change the way we look at teaching long term. It will come. The big unknown is...when?

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#179

Post by twoslide » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 8:43 PM UTC

slykar wrote: post #14

impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

It's not really about the most efficient, easily consumable delivery of information from point A to B. Students are really "consuming" a bundle of knowledge, skills, experiences, credentials, reptutation and social networks. There's not much incentive to move online (Prof at a UK university)

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#180

Post by polishdude20 » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 8:50 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #140

polishdude20 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best thing to do when coming back from covid and resuming in-person classes would be to try and take the good parts of online learning and keep them. For example, every professor should record their lectures to make them available anytime. Although, I can already see a bunch of professors complaining that if the students can watch the lectures later, they won't come to the live lecture.

Professors at university don't really care about attendance, since you are an adult and can make your own decisions with your education. Attendance was never tallied during my undergrad. Some of mine would make a joke of it about how the class seems to triple in population on exam day.

I work with professors at a university, the amount of times I've heard them complain about low attendance rates makes me think otherwise.

Yes, professors don't usually TAKE attendance but they do make a big fuss when they notice half the class missing even if it's because the other half of class watches the lectures on their own time.