Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#111

Post by dorchadas » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #43

bachmeier wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US university professor too. I agree with this: > Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. There's no substitute for in-person education. For years, I heard from the online education cheerleaders that online can be better. Online can be a quality experience, but you can't build the same relationships, develop the same comfort with aski…

> Some material is better taught in an async fashion. Based on the experience of teaching this semester by multiple colleagues, the problem, of course, is that students will not consume that material at all. If you try to do short quizzes to ensure they watched it, they will cheat, or just take the grade penalty. The problem with online is that the the modicum of shame present in offline classes that forces them to p…

Yep, this is what I've noticed at the high school level. Only the self-motivated kids, and the kids who want to learn and pass are learning and passing. The others just don't even have to give a pretense of it anymore since they're not physically there.

I can only imagine how people think fully remote learning will work long term, without an overhaul in how our education system is structured (does everyone need to know algebra 2 or how to balance chemical reactions?)

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#112

Post by darkstar_16 » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

We can't. Probably because learning outcomes isn't the point of school. The point of school is to teach worldly skills. To talk to other people. To interact and to stand out in a world full of other equally smart individuals. If learning was the only point of school, we would have moved to online education long ago. I think kids should still go to school and then get absorbed in jobs and then learn on the job.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#113

Post by dorchadas » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #95

qsort wrote: post #8

If remote or partially remote education is to become the default, you have to scrap the teacher-students-classroom model; it hardly works in real life and it's even worse when not happening in a physical space. Moving to a fully asynchronous model is the only way you can maintain any semblance of educational standards. Put content online, have the students access it at their own leisure. Use the saved time to arrange…

I'm personally appalled that instead of leaning hard into a "flipped classroom model" by having kids watch (or read!) lectures on material on their own, and then working in small groups with their teacher, the US public school system has instead doubled-down on just retrofitting the classroom environment into remote hell. As a developer it's difficult enough trying to remain engaged on any remote meeting with more th…

So I'm a secondary school teacher, and I have tried this. Several times, with several classes (math and introductory chemistry/physics). The issue is the kids think of it as not having any work. So they do nothing while at home, which then means I end up having to teach the content anyway. It just doesn't work because the kids are responsible and refuse to do stuff at home, meaning I have to teach what they should've learned and at least been able to discuss.

And it's not a matter of them not understanding the material, it's that they openly admit they didn't watch/read it and don't think they have to.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#114

Post by jeffreyrogers » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

There must be resources for homeschoolers that already solve a lot of this right? Maybe someone on HN has experience with that? I know in the past there were correspondence courses for students whose parents were not in one place for a long time (diplomats, people sailing around the world, etc.) I'm sure something like that still exists as well.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#115

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #99

tenacious_tuna wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm personally appalled that instead of leaning hard into a "flipped classroom model" by having kids watch (or read!) lectures on material on their own, and then working in small groups with their teacher, the US public school system has instead doubled-down on just retrofitting the classroom environment into remote hell. As a developer it's difficult enough trying to remain engaged on any remote meeting with more th…

Thinking on this more: There's a high level of self-direction required of students in a flipped classroom model, and by my experience in the US public school system, the kids who're already doing well will do just fine in a flipped (or otherwise self-directed) model, but the at-risk kids are the ones who would need more attention--just like in the classroom.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#116

Post by polishdude20 » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

slykar wrote: post #14

impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

Coming from a different country I don't really know why remote is not the default option. Listening to a professor speaking to himself from a distance of 10 meters is an awful experience compared to a video recording that you can stop/rewind. Heck, you can even take some proper notes that you will actually understand! For labs it's not like you get any help either. You just have to follow some instructions point by p…

I feel like the misery of online education comes from the lack of consistency. One professor may drone on and on for a few hours during the lecture and have no "showmanship". Another may refuse to put his lectures online and demands that you he there at 8:30 am to watch the lecture live and only live. Some professors just refuse to change with the times. Too many educators want to try and fit an in-person education style into an online format. That's the wrong way to go about it.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#117

Post by dorchadas » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

rgblambda wrote: post #15

qsort wrote: post #8

If remote or partially remote education is to become the default, you have to scrap the teacher-students-classroom model; it hardly works in real life and it's even worse when not happening in a physical space. Moving to a fully asynchronous model is the only way you can maintain any semblance of educational standards. Put content online, have the students access it at their own leisure. Use the saved time to arrange…

>>Put content online, have the students access it at their own leisure. I second this. This will allow school lessons to better resemble learning the workplace.

Unless the student is self-motivated, often 'access it at their own leisure' means never. Dealing with that currently with all my students who are failing right now because they just didn't think they needed to watch the videos/do the assignments.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#118

Post by edtech_startup » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

We are working on this at LearnerShape: https://www.learnershape.com/blog/recreating-traditional-lea...

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#119

Post by polishdude20 » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

bachmeier wrote: post #23

impendia wrote: post #13

I'm a professor at a US university. The honest answer (at least at the university level) -- probably we don't. From what I can tell, there's very little enthusiasm for online education, on the part of either professors or students. Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. For a dissenting perpsective, read Joshua Kim's columns at Insid…

US university professor too. I agree with this: > Pretty much everyone is eager to get back to normal, and I'm fairly confident that this is exactly what is going to happen. There's no substitute for in-person education. For years, I heard from the online education cheerleaders that online can be better. Online can be a quality experience, but you can't build the same relationships, develop the same comfort with aski…

The best thing to do when coming back from covid and resuming in-person classes would be to try and take the good parts of online learning and keep them. For example, every professor should record their lectures to make them available anytime. Although, I can already see a bunch of professors complaining that if the students can watch the lectures later, they won't come to the live lecture.

Re: Ask HN: How do we build the new remote education system

#120

Post by thelock85 » Wed, Jan 13, 2021, 5:23 PM UTC

All of the challenges with the US K-16 system are political, cultural, or socioeconomic. The choice of technology —whether whiteboard and desks or video lectures— is more likely to amplify those challenges than anything else imho.

Speaking from my professional vantage point on K-12 (school model design and implementation, edtech, school systems leadership development), “content” has a long way to go. If not in terms of design, scope and sequence, then in discovery and management (e.g. find what works for me and transfer back to discourse of assessment, final project, job interview, etc.).

It goes hand and hand with “mastery”. Presumably there is enough content to match any student’s learning style, but the system itself biases toward standardization, not personalization. And the standard goals and outcomes drive the cultural, political and socioeconomic conversation in education reform... it’s a viciously swinging pendulum.

Then there are the classroom teachers and school staff who often best understand students’ learning needs, and bend the rules in-person, in real-time to accommodate. I’m not sure how that looks in a new remote system, but it is the most overlooked and important part of the current system imho.