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St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

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Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#151

Post by Alenycus »

teleforce wrote: post #144
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is true that Muslim centers preserved some ancient Greek learning, but you overestimate this phenomenon and your depiction of the christianized Roman Empire destroying the classical tradition is inaccurate caricature. The reason we prize Muslim traditions for preserving Aristotle, for example, is not because the the Roman Empire post-Constantine had no interest in Greek learning, it is because Byzantine thought fa…

I think you are the one who are incorrectly underestimating the contribution of Muslim empires and civilization in preserving ancient Greek learning and books. The Muslim centers are not only preserving ancient Greek learning and books, they are cherishing and enriching them for several hundreds years [1]. To them these ancient Greek books are equivalent of modern days da Vinci's paintings that can be weight in gold,…

This is not true. The vast, vast, vast majority of works from the classical world we have were saved by byzantine and western European monks.

I am thankful we the works saved by Muslims, but there has been a gross over reaction where the true source of most of our knowledge of the classical world has been ignored so people can score woke points for praising non western cultures and erasing the contributions of the west and christendom.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#152

Post by agumonkey »

selfhoster11 wrote: post #143
agumonkey wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they do seem to emerge from the same struggle don't they ?

But they are not mutually compatible, so they certainly cannot lead to the same thing.

I was thinking that they were only partial solution and thus only partially incompatible, in that if you seek through the gods abstraction you actually reach the hidden truth behind.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#153

Post by teleforce »

aaron-santos wrote: post #7

What I find more interesting than the rules themselves is in which ways were they broken. With any system of rules (and the more complex the better), there are bound to be omissions or conflicts which result in gray areas or loop holes. While some monasteries were strict regardless, others pushed the boundaries. Relating to "CHAPTER 39 On the Measure of Food" for example, monk's meals were supposed to "have two cooke…

This is probably where the bad cliche "rules are meant to be broken" came from. Perhaps St Benedict had missed the note of "Rules Making 101", never make up any rules that cannot and impossible to be followed.

As I mentioned in my other comments where God in the Quran has exposed and cautioned the monks (in Chapter "Hadid" or "Iron") who were not observing their own made up rules during their monastic period seeking God's good pleasure, for the exercise of monasticsm that were not originally prescribed or enjoined in their own God's scriptures, oh the irony! Pardon the pun :-)

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#154

Post by teleforce »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #150
teleforce wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I'm no a scholar in Greek and Latin manuscript but I doubt that you are more of a scholar than Dr. Columba Stewart the author of the allegedly "pop-science article" that I have referenced and provided you. He is not only a Benedictine monk, he is also a very reputable scholar and has been an executive director of the Hill Museum and Manuscript library since 2003 that has Harvard, Yale and Oxford University as his…

Did you even read the Columba Stewart article you linked to? The author speaks about precious manuscripts in general held outside Europe, that is, not just Latin and Greek works transmitted exclusively in the Muslim world (which certainly exist, but are comparatively few) but the Muslim world’s own works. The article is therefore not relevant to the OP’s claim that started this subthread, and your boasting about the…

There were two biggest centers of ancient books and scriptures after the demolition of the Great Library of Alexandria, namely Baghdad and Toledo. The Library of Alexandria is said to house about 100,000 book or manuscript titles mainly by the Hellenistic Greek scholars.

Of all people, the Christian Coptic Pope is the culprit who ordered the demolition of the great library in the 4th century CE. The Muslim Empire and scholars somehow managed to scrambled majority of the Greek civilization learning and books of what have been left after the destruction, and also significantly add their own knowledge contributions. The effort resulted in the two greatest centers of ancient texts in the world by the 11th century CE.

Baghdad center was ransacked to the ashes, and majority of the stored books and manuscripts demolished. The only surviving secondary or lesser center of the two was Toledo. Toledo fell to the Spaniard in 11th century. Benedict the abbot who in charged of more than 600 monastery has ordered the clergy to literally copy and also translate books and scriptures from the center in Toledo. In Toledo there existed original Arabic books on the new knowledge, Arabic translations of Greek books and scriptures that otherwise have been lost forever, and perhaps many copies of the original books of Greek civilization but we probably never knew the exact composition since this happened about a thousand years back. These copies of the books and manuscripts were ordered to be kept in these many monasteries, and the books and manuscripts remained there for centuries. If you think only a few works (less than five) of the ancient Greek works that were preserved during the time due to the Muslim empire and scholars efforts, I really want to know what are the things that you are smoking at the moment?

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#155

Post by idclip »

agumonkey wrote: post #152
selfhoster11 wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they are not mutually compatible, so they certainly cannot lead to the same thing.

I was thinking that they were only partial solution and thus only partially incompatible, in that if you seek through the gods abstraction you actually reach the hidden truth behind.

Partial is true, also temporally different, and geographically different, arisen during times of different levels of literacy. So many factors.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#156

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

teleforce wrote: post #154
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you even read the Columba Stewart article you linked to? The author speaks about precious manuscripts in general held outside Europe, that is, not just Latin and Greek works transmitted exclusively in the Muslim world (which certainly exist, but are comparatively few) but the Muslim world’s own works. The article is therefore not relevant to the OP’s claim that started this subthread, and your boasting about the…

There were two biggest centers of ancient books and scriptures after the demolition of the Great Library of Alexandria, namely Baghdad and Toledo. The Library of Alexandria is said to house about 100,000 book or manuscript titles mainly by the Hellenistic Greek scholars. Of all people, the Christian Coptic Pope is the culprit who ordered the demolition of the great library in the 4th century CE. The Muslim Empire and…

Again, your posts abound in misunderstandings of history and urban legend. With regard to the Library of Alexandria, the library building probably no longer housed any books when it was destroyed by the Coptic hierarch; the library collection had been lost in past centuries.

With regard to Toledo, you appear to have read some pop-sci articles about it that made you excited, but you overestimate its impact. We know the provenance of the manuscripts of the Greek and Latin writers that have come down to us, and Toledo played absolutely no role in the transmission of most of them. Again, Greek and Latin manuscript studies is a well-established field.

Finally, none of what you have been posting is relevant to this subthread, and if you really want foreigners to appreciate the erudition of the Muslim world, getting your information right is important. With your carelessness about the facts, you are only damaging your own cause.

Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)

#157

Post by teleforce »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #156
teleforce wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There were two biggest centers of ancient books and scriptures after the demolition of the Great Library of Alexandria, namely Baghdad and Toledo. The Library of Alexandria is said to house about 100,000 book or manuscript titles mainly by the Hellenistic Greek scholars. Of all people, the Christian Coptic Pope is the culprit who ordered the demolition of the great library in the 4th century CE. The Muslim Empire and…

Again, your posts abound in misunderstandings of history and urban legend. With regard to the Library of Alexandria, the library building probably no longer housed any books when it was destroyed by the Coptic hierarch; the library collection had been lost in past centuries. With regard to Toledo, you appear to have read some pop-sci articles about it that made you excited, but you overestimate its impact. We know th…

Wow, do you really believe that the Great Library of Alexandria is empty when the burning and the demolition happened? Its last recorded director was a scholar and mathematician Theon, father of famed female mathematician, astronomer and philosopher Hypatia. Hypatia a writer of 13 volumes Arithmetica (this probably where the "word" aritmetics came from) and a pagan was murdered by a Christian mob in 415 CE. Yes, why would an empty library has a director? Care to explain?

The Christian establishment in the antiquity and the middle age were so anti-knowledge that it was the opposite of Muslim empire at the time. The anti-knowledge behavior has been exposed by movement such as Renaissance (technology) and Protestant (religion). Do you know that by law at the time you cannot translate Bible to other local languages in many part of Europe until a few centuries back? Yes, that is the main reason you have the Protestant movement.

Regarding the effect the Toledo it is mentioned in the article by your own foremost Greek learning and manuscript expert in the so called pop science articles by Dr Columba Stewart and also other similar experts. It seems that you denied most if their relevant claims regarding Toledo. If you don't mind can you please tell me what is your credentials and expertises in Greek learning history that you have disagreed with most of these reputable scholars regarding the matter?

Anyway in Arabic the non-believers are referred to as "kafir", literally means the "denial of the truth".

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