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Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

electronupdate.blogspot.com

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Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#171

Post by throwawayp123 »

SilasX wrote: post #164
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

This. It's why it's so important for laptops to permit a physical slider to block the integrated camera. It is a low-cost, low tech way to verify that the camera is not picking up usable images. The real problem is that we don't have something analogous for microphones. The best we could do is some kind of humming device that you could turn on near the sensor that would drown out any noises it might otherwise pick up…

Well, a physical open/close switch that's in line with the microphone lead would do the same thing. But, obviously that would be assuming privacy needs are incorporated into the design. I would imagine this could be added on some older laptop models with more physical space(I'm thinking of older thinkpads), but it would be a non-trivial process of opening a case, adding a cut-out for a switch, etc.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#172

Post by analog31 »

pansa2 wrote: post #107
Birkalo wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that BLUF is definitely the better way of writing most informational pieces, particularly articles such as this. It's a similar concept to the 'Topic Sentence' which would be used to sum up the ideas of the following paragraph. The only reason I could see for actively choosing not to use BLUF - would be to force users to read more of your article for the sake of it, which seems (to me) like a 'cheap' tactic.

Do you think presenting the conclusion up-front could detract from the “story-telling” of the piece? By walking the reader through the investigation and its findings in chronological order, perhaps the article aims to make the reader feel like they are performing the investigation themselves?

I can't think of one right off the bat, but I've read some great novels where the author starts by telling you what's going to happen, but you still don't want to stop reading. In fact sometimes it makes you all the more interested in continuing with the story.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#173

Post by iratewizard »

rubyfan wrote: post #138
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

The stakes are so high for Amazon to tell the truth here. If they were lying then there would be outrage among users, media, competition, etc. I’ve dealt with many people from Amazon in my professional life and based on their handling of customer data I believe Amazon take seriously the trust customers place with them. Amazon believe the Alexa and Echo platform will grow their retail and service relationships with cu…

Amazon is treated as if it were Google, despite not having quite the same track record. Amazon has walked a thin ethical line in terms of managing their labor force, but I haven't seen the same level of involvement in things like PRISM.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#174

Post by mhb »

blackoil wrote: post #91
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

We have options of either to trust the company or some other auditor. We can try getting some laws made to ensure honesty, but I personally don't like that route this early in the technology. What we need a completely independent organisation like EFF to audit and certify basic guarantees around privacy/safety. The companies should also prefer this route as it would give take some heat off in EU/Congress without crea…

Isn't this Consumer Reports?

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#175

Post by KraftKacke »

epanchin wrote: post #165
KraftKacke wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, phones do have microphones too. The were a confidentiality risk even before becoming mobile. You also have piping running through your house, which could be tapped, you don't even need microphones, and the EM field emitted by your monitor can be read across the street. So why even care? Why should I encrypt anything, if I can't even prove not living in an all powerful simulation? Back on topic, it's not a phones…

Why would a google phone be any less likely to be listening than a google home?

I addressed that point already in the post you're replying to.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#176

Post by KraftKacke »

fortran77 wrote: post #169
KraftKacke wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it's unfathomable to have such a device around. I even feel uncomfortable with my neighbor having one (which I _hear him talking to). I assume it's like reading the side effects of medication and think they are other people's problems somehow. How do people trade core privacy for setting the alarm or getting the weather report by voice command. I don't respect them. Same with off the shelf IP cameras in one's b…

I take security seriously. I have separate networks for my smart devices that have no access to my secure home network. I stay current on all risks, and I'm a regular attendee of security conferences. But I have Amazon smart speakers in every room (on their own network that can see the network my smart lights are on.) They're great. I don't worry about Amazon listening in.

https://xkcd.com/1200/

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#177

Post by tshaddox »

ballenf wrote: post #147
randomsearch wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is it different from having a mobile phone on the table?

I think the issue is one of the consumer's intent: are you buying a phone with a bunch of extra capabilities or a microphone hooked to a data center around the world? And that explicit decision is what is jarring to people who value privacy. Of course they both have microphones hooked to data centers, but the Alexas/Echos are almost worthless without the microphone enabled. Many people I know have turned off listenin…

I’m not seeing the difference. If you already have the cell phone in your home, you might as well get the smart speaker if you want the convenience of voice controls for playing music, setting timers, etc.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#178

Post by HourglassFR »

BurningFrog wrote: post #166
HourglassFR wrote: post #79

Yes that is the technical conclusion. But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. To be clear, I am not saying we should trust Amazon & Co, I'm saying that if that's the level of trust we have with home assistance devices, why even bother with the stuff ?

> But maybe the most important thing is that we have to do an actual teardown of the product in order to have some confidence that Amazon is not lying on it's Echo capabilities. Isn't it also the most obvious thing? To be confident something is true, you need to confirm it. How else would the universe and human perception work?

From a hackers perspective I guess it makes sense yes, and as we are on HN this is perhaps not surprising.

Still, this is not how humans usually interact. I trust there is no poison in my food without analysing it, I trust people to no shot me as I walk in the street, I trust the shopkeeper to accept that I have paid if the card reader says so… As ethno points out [1], some social work is needed here for our collective trust no to be misguided. Crucially, if the social work to buy trust does no exist, it entirely falls on you.

I consider myself that trusting the Echo (or other home assistance devices) is too much work for the meager benefit it provides.

[1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25747404

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#179

Post by rahimiali »

jeffrallen wrote: post #86

The fact that the mike defaults to on after power on is completely understandable from a user interface perspective, but from a security perspective it makes the mute switch useless. Why? Because any attacker that has penetrated far enough to be able to control the SOC in order to snoop can also trigger a SOC reset in order to make sure that the mike is enabled before they start snooping. A physical switch would have…

The R line for the flip flops goes to the SoC, but we don’t know if it’s tied to SoC’s reset line or if it’s a GPIO on the SoC. In the former case, you’d have to reset the SoC to turn on the mic. In the latter, you can just turn on the mic without reset. In either case, the LED always shows the true state of the mic.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#180

Post by SilasX »

throwawayp123 wrote: post #171
SilasX wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. It's why it's so important for laptops to permit a physical slider to block the integrated camera. It is a low-cost, low tech way to verify that the camera is not picking up usable images. The real problem is that we don't have something analogous for microphones. The best we could do is some kind of humming device that you could turn on near the sensor that would drown out any noises it might otherwise pick up…

Well, a physical open/close switch that's in line with the microphone lead would do the same thing. But, obviously that would be assuming privacy needs are incorporated into the design. I would imagine this could be added on some older laptop models with more physical space(I'm thinking of older thinkpads), but it would be a non-trivial process of opening a case, adding a cut-out for a switch, etc.

To be analogous, it would have to actually interfere with the thing-being-sensed. The idea is that it should work despite you having no knowledge, and being completely untrusting, of what shenanigans they might have regarding how it's wired up.
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