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Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

electronupdate.blogspot.com

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Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#81

Post by pansa2 »

jessriedel wrote: post #20

Conclusion: > But, basically if one presses the switch it causes the flip-flops to change state and to then either add or remove power from the microphones. > The 'mute' button appears to be very real and functional. When the button glows 'red' the power is removed from the microphones.

I sometimes write articles describing investigations similar to this one. Do you think this article’s structure is appropriate?

Or would it be better to reduce the need for comments like this one by putting the conclusion much earlier in the piece? I understand not putting the conclusion in the title, but perhaps in the first paragraph, in the spirit of BLUF [0]?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLUF_(communication)

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#82

Post by unwind »

dom96 wrote: post #80
chaboud wrote: post #15

Disclosure: I'm an Amazon Devices PE, but not on Alexa devices. Jeff (and others) have spoken publicly about this in the past, and this teardown is correct. The hardware is designed such that, if the privacy LED is on, the microphone is unpowered. In order to compromise that, one would need to physically alter/damage the hardware.

What’s the PE in “Amazon Devices PE” stand for?

My random guess would be "product engineer [1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Product_engineering

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#83

Post by plumeria »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #31
bonoboTP wrote: post #23

Red light used to indicate recording, traditionally. I'd expect the light to be green when I'm safe from spying.

Not sure why this was voted down, as that's the way I'd expect it to work as well. The red light should flash or pulsate when recording, in fact. Otherwise, people without good color vision might miss the cue.

My 2015 Macbook turns on a green LED when the camera is recording.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#84

Post by tobr »

chaboud wrote: post #15

Disclosure: I'm an Amazon Devices PE, but not on Alexa devices. Jeff (and others) have spoken publicly about this in the past, and this teardown is correct. The hardware is designed such that, if the privacy LED is on, the microphone is unpowered. In order to compromise that, one would need to physically alter/damage the hardware.

Which “Jeff” are you referring to here, and if it’s Bezos, why are you using his first name as if we all hang out with him on a regular basis?

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#85

Post by buran77 »

systemvoltage wrote: post #41
Uhhrrr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP should also Insist On The Highest Standards and remind them that OP is Right, A Lot.

Then OP sees newsflash on TechCrunch "Amazon Echo Flex v2 is failing in low humidity conditions". Goddamn it, Andrew (at the reliability lab). OP goes home and opens a bottle of Amazon basics wine.

This comment along with your previous one give the impression that in effect any solution that is favorable for the user is not only going to "cost too much to do just for the customers" but is also bound to be less reliable. It's how every privacy invasion or abuse of position of the past decade+ has been justified: "we made the product cheaper and better for you, any change will cost a lot and break it".

Because yes, this can be used to justify close to anything that is in the interest of the company even if it's to the customer's disadvantage. Those features usually bring money to a company so removing them would be a loss. On top of that you can always attach that generic claim that any change will cause the system to implode and will also make your cat feral.

Well, some of that may be true but it doesn't mean we should use it as a justification to keep doing things like that. Products can be built with the consumer's best interest in mind at little additional cost if any. The problem is the consumer's best interest usually brings in less money.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#86

Post by jeffrallen »

The fact that the mike defaults to on after power on is completely understandable from a user interface perspective, but from a security perspective it makes the mute switch useless. Why? Because any attacker that has penetrated far enough to be able to control the SOC in order to snoop can also trigger a SOC reset in order to make sure that the mike is enabled before they start snooping.

A physical switch would have been a better choice, if it was actually for security instead of security theatre.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#87

Post by jeffrallen »

tobr wrote: post #84
chaboud wrote: post #15

Disclosure: I'm an Amazon Devices PE, but not on Alexa devices. Jeff (and others) have spoken publicly about this in the past, and this teardown is correct. The hardware is designed such that, if the privacy LED is on, the microphone is unpowered. In order to compromise that, one would need to physically alter/damage the hardware.

Which “Jeff” are you referring to here, and if it’s Bezos, why are you using his first name as if we all hang out with him on a regular basis?

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE. (Too bad it's not me.)

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#88

Post by astura »

mlyle wrote: post #62
aeternum wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but it's still a bad design. If the device ever loses power, or restarts for any reason while the mute is engaged an informed user must accept a non-zero probability that their privacy was invaded. I have wireless headphones that work like this and it's a terrible design. If they go out of range temporarily, they unmute. It makes the 'hardware' mute functionality absolutely useless since it cannot be relied upon…

Short of a switch that is sticky when powered off, or a design that comes up muted... or excessive wizardry to persist state, this is non-negotiable, though.

>switch that is sticky when powered off

This is a long solved problem, a lever switch. Laptops (usually enterprise laptops) sometimes have them to turn on/off wireless communication.

https://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/34956/who-needs-an-ex...

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#89

Post by Birkalo »

pansa2 wrote: post #81
jessriedel wrote: post #20

Conclusion: > But, basically if one presses the switch it causes the flip-flops to change state and to then either add or remove power from the microphones. > The 'mute' button appears to be very real and functional. When the button glows 'red' the power is removed from the microphones.

I sometimes write articles describing investigations similar to this one. Do you think this article’s structure is appropriate? Or would it be better to reduce the need for comments like this one by putting the conclusion much earlier in the piece? I understand not putting the conclusion in the title, but perhaps in the first paragraph, in the spirit of BLUF [0]? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLUF_(communication)

I think that BLUF is definitely the better way of writing most informational pieces, particularly articles such as this.

It's a similar concept to the 'Topic Sentence' which would be used to sum up the ideas of the following paragraph.

The only reason I could see for actively choosing not to use BLUF - would be to force users to read more of your article for the sake of it, which seems (to me) like a 'cheap' tactic.

Re: Amazon Echo Flex: Microphone mute button appears to be real and functional

#90

Post by alias_neo »

pansa2 wrote: post #81
jessriedel wrote: post #20

Conclusion: > But, basically if one presses the switch it causes the flip-flops to change state and to then either add or remove power from the microphones. > The 'mute' button appears to be very real and functional. When the button glows 'red' the power is removed from the microphones.

I sometimes write articles describing investigations similar to this one. Do you think this article’s structure is appropriate? Or would it be better to reduce the need for comments like this one by putting the conclusion much earlier in the piece? I understand not putting the conclusion in the title, but perhaps in the first paragraph, in the spirit of BLUF [0]? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BLUF_(communication)

I have noted this with several high ranking posts on HN. I wonder whether it's a case of the author being unaware of BLUF, or simply that they want you to read their work before finding the conclusion?
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