Best date I've seen in a while on an HN post. ;-)
St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
141–150 of 157 posts
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#142Earlier quoted context omitted.
> i see how all prophets are indeed one, and how budha, christ and allah and all other gods stem from that one thing which we encounter after long meditations and prayer finally takes away our anger and hurt to open that door which cannot be closed. There certainly are teachings that one might find in different religions, but to say that "all prophets are indeed one" and "how budha, christ and allah and all other god…
But they do seem to emerge from the same struggle don't they ?
Yes they do
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#143Earlier quoted context omitted.
> i see how all prophets are indeed one, and how budha, christ and allah and all other gods stem from that one thing which we encounter after long meditations and prayer finally takes away our anger and hurt to open that door which cannot be closed. There certainly are teachings that one might find in different religions, but to say that "all prophets are indeed one" and "how budha, christ and allah and all other god…
But they do seem to emerge from the same struggle don't they ?
But they are not mutually compatible, so they certainly cannot lead to the same thing.
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a widely known but misleading "fact". The truth is much more complicated. For one, an almost universally overlooked bit of history is how absolutely crucial muslim scholars were in preserving classical texts, in keeping an unbroken chain from the Classical Age until the Renaissance. Places like Al-Andalus -- muslim Iberia that is -- or Bagdhad, were the centres of knowledge in the world in their time, and als…
It is true that Muslim centers preserved some ancient Greek learning, but you overestimate this phenomenon and your depiction of the christianized Roman Empire destroying the classical tradition is inaccurate caricature. The reason we prize Muslim traditions for preserving Aristotle, for example, is not because the the Roman Empire post-Constantine had no interest in Greek learning, it is because Byzantine thought fa…
I think you are the one who are incorrectly underestimating the contribution of Muslim empires and civilization in preserving ancient Greek learning and books.
The Muslim centers are not only preserving ancient Greek learning and books, they are cherishing and enriching them for several hundreds years [1]. To them these ancient Greek books are equivalent of modern days da Vinci's paintings that can be weight in gold, literally no kidding. At the time, if you are doing translation of any Greek texts you can get paid by the weight of the translation in gold equivalent! Please tell me at any other time this is happening in any part of human history or even now.
It's also reported that at one time, Abbasid Caliph Al-Ma'mun was demanding an original copy of the Ptolemy's Almagest book as the condition of a truce between Byzantine Empire and the Abbasid Empire. This is really something big because based on the saying of Muhammad that prophesizes any Muslim leader who can defeated and conquered Byzantine Empire (Constantinople) is the best leader ever. He basically abandoning this potential privilege title because of an original copy of Ptolemy's book. If you think he is too weak to defeat Byzantine and resorting to lame truce, please think again. He basically conquered and subjugated entire modern day Afghanistan for good, and only a few legendary leaders that even managed to do that including your beloved Alexander the Great. For the record, the mighty British Empire and USA did not manage to do just that.
Al-Ma'mun is also the founder of the "House of Wisdom" where Al-Khwarizmi was the first director of the center and his name is very familiar because apparently the "algebra" and "algorithm" words were derived from his book title and his names, respectively. Because of his contribution to science one crater in the moon (Almanon) is named after him[2].
Believe it or not, according to some of modern historians, the extreme love for knowledge of the Abbasid Empire was partly blamed on the downfall of the Abbasid Empire at the expense of Islamic spirituality. This perhaps mainly due to the Islamic teaching that says after you're dead there are only three things that can increase you deeds in the hereafter. Firstly your God fearing children, secondly your donated and lively wealth for charity (waqaf) and thirdly your contributions to the knowledge that are beneficial to other people.
[1]How Modern Science Came Into The World, https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt45kddd
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
It is true that Muslim centers preserved some ancient Greek learning, but you overestimate this phenomenon and your depiction of the christianized Roman Empire destroying the classical tradition is inaccurate caricature. The reason we prize Muslim traditions for preserving Aristotle, for example, is not because the the Roman Empire post-Constantine had no interest in Greek learning, it is because Byzantine thought fa…
I think you are the one who are incorrectly underestimating the contribution of Muslim empires and civilization in preserving ancient Greek learning and books. The Muslim centers are not only preserving ancient Greek learning and books, they are cherishing and enriching them for several hundreds years [1]. To them these ancient Greek books are equivalent of modern days da Vinci's paintings that can be weight in gold,…
We were not talking about whether the Muslim world appreciated Greek thought, we were talking about how much the Muslim world preserved Greek works otherwise unavailable. Regardless of your boasting of Muslim scholarship, many more Greek works have come down to use in manuscripts copied down in the Christian world. It is only a comparatively few works that we must credit the Muslim world with preserving.
Again, go look at the manuscript sources for all those OCT and Teubner editions.
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#146This is probably one of the oldest complete manuscripts that I've (partly) read in addition to the Tsun Szu's The Art of War and the Bible.
It is interesting to note that monasticism is neither prescribed nor enjoined in the Bible, in both the Old and the New Testaments [1]. It is, however, mentioned in the Quran that monasticism is rather an invention by the People of the Books namely Christians and Jews [2]. According to the Quran, it's invented for the monks to seek God's good pleasure, but apparently most of the monks do not observe it as it ought to have been observed. Perhaps this book and manual from St. Benedict provided us with the most authentic and comprehensive descriptions of the rules of the monks' observations during the classical antiquity. By reading the rules I can appreciate why the monks have failed observe them ;-). Adding to the fact that it predates the Quran, these type of observations that were probably being referred to by the Quran.
Fun fact, there is an Ashtiname (Book of Peace), a letter sent by Muhammad to the Saint Catherine's Monastery [3]. The purpose is to guarantee the safety of its monks living there against any potential aggression by the Muslim individuals or army. Given the monastery is still exist and standing today despite of being there for more than a thousand years under Islamic government rule is probably the testament of the effectiveness of the covenant provided by the Ashtiname.
[1]https://theorthodoxlife.wordpress.com/2013/12/12/monasticism...
[2]https://www.islamicstudies.info/tafheem.php?sura=57&verse=26...
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think you are the one who are incorrectly underestimating the contribution of Muslim empires and civilization in preserving ancient Greek learning and books. The Muslim centers are not only preserving ancient Greek learning and books, they are cherishing and enriching them for several hundreds years [1]. To them these ancient Greek books are equivalent of modern days da Vinci's paintings that can be weight in gold,…
We were not talking about whether the Muslim world appreciated Greek thought, we were talking about how much the Muslim world preserved Greek works otherwise unavailable. Regardless of your boasting of Muslim scholarship, many more Greek works have come down to use in manuscripts copied down in the Christian world. It is only a comparatively few works that we must credit the Muslim world with preserving. Again, go lo…
Please check this article on the Benedict abbot or Peter the Venerable who was during his time in charged of more than 600 monasteries [1]. In the article it's mentioned that he summoned the monks to not only translate Arabic works he found in Toledo to Latin, but also Arabic translations of otherwise lost classical Greek texts. If this not the proof of Muslim Empire and scholars greatly help preserving Greek texts then I don't know what is. As you probably know that the renaissance era was started from the fall of Toledo into the Spaniard's hands.
Just for the sake of arguments, even if the Cristian world have most of their copies, are having the back up copies by the Muslim world really help preserving the books when there was no Google Drive around?
At least we probably can agree that these Muslim scholars were not only appreciating but they were also cherishing the Greek books just like we are cherishing the PlayStation 5 not only appreciating it. For them it is part of their religious duty to contribute and spread the knowledge regardless they were from India, China or Greek. You need to understand that these scholars not only preserved the book but they cherished them. It's given fact that you only keep what you value and cherish, and by nature human are selective hoarders. Without the ransack of Baghdad by the Mongol where the rivers turned blue/black by the ink of the thrown and demolished books it's probably not an exaggeration to say that we probably living in Mars by now. The fact that the lesser backup copies in Toledo, Spain that fell into the European hands essentially initiated the knowledge revolutions or renaissance as they called it today.
[1]https://www.americamagazine.org/faith/2019/12/27/these-are-m...
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#148Earlier quoted context omitted.
We were not talking about whether the Muslim world appreciated Greek thought, we were talking about how much the Muslim world preserved Greek works otherwise unavailable. Regardless of your boasting of Muslim scholarship, many more Greek works have come down to use in manuscripts copied down in the Christian world. It is only a comparatively few works that we must credit the Muslim world with preserving. Again, go lo…
Please check this article on the Benedict abbot or Peter the Venerable who was during his time in charged of more than 600 monasteries [1]. In the article it's mentioned that he summoned the monks to not only translate Arabic works he found in Toledo to Latin, but also Arabic translations of otherwise lost classical Greek texts. If this not the proof of Muslim Empire and scholars greatly help preserving Greek texts t…
I am sorry, but you appear to lack any training in the field of Greek and Latin manuscript studies, and your posts here abound in oversimplification and urban myths about the Medieval era and the Renaissance. Again, instead of linking to pop-sci articles, and a JSTOR publication which does not actually bear on the present discussion, please consult an actual university library and go through the manuscript sources of editions of Greek and Latin writers to see how little a role the Muslim world has played in transmission of classical authors.
While you might be very proud that the Muslim world preserved (a very few) Greek and Latin sources that were also held by the Christian world, that is irrelevant to the discussion launched by the OP.
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
Please check this article on the Benedict abbot or Peter the Venerable who was during his time in charged of more than 600 monasteries [1]. In the article it's mentioned that he summoned the monks to not only translate Arabic works he found in Toledo to Latin, but also Arabic translations of otherwise lost classical Greek texts. If this not the proof of Muslim Empire and scholars greatly help preserving Greek texts t…
I am sorry, but you appear to lack any training in the field of Greek and Latin manuscript studies, and your posts here abound in oversimplification and urban myths about the Medieval era and the Renaissance. Again, instead of linking to pop-sci articles, and a JSTOR publication which does not actually bear on the present discussion, please consult an actual university library and go through the manuscript sources of…
Yes I'm no a scholar in Greek and Latin manuscript but I doubt that you are more of a scholar than Dr. Columba Stewart the author of the allegedly "pop-science article" that I have referenced and provided you. He is not only a Benedictine monk, he is also a very reputable scholar and has been an executive director of the Hill Museum and Manuscript library since 2003 that has Harvard, Yale and Oxford University as his alma mater. Heck, I cannot even think of anybody else that has more credential than him in the Greek and Latin manuscripts as being maintained by the monasteries [1].
Re: St. Benedict’s Rule for Monasteries (516)
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am sorry, but you appear to lack any training in the field of Greek and Latin manuscript studies, and your posts here abound in oversimplification and urban myths about the Medieval era and the Renaissance. Again, instead of linking to pop-sci articles, and a JSTOR publication which does not actually bear on the present discussion, please consult an actual university library and go through the manuscript sources of…
Yes I'm no a scholar in Greek and Latin manuscript but I doubt that you are more of a scholar than Dr. Columba Stewart the author of the allegedly "pop-science article" that I have referenced and provided you. He is not only a Benedictine monk, he is also a very reputable scholar and has been an executive director of the Hill Museum and Manuscript library since 2003 that has Harvard, Yale and Oxford University as his…
Did you even read the Columba Stewart article you linked to? The author speaks about precious manuscripts in general held outside Europe, that is, not just Latin and Greek works transmitted exclusively in the Muslim world (which certainly exist, but are comparatively few) but the Muslim world’s own works. The article is therefore not relevant to the OP’s claim that started this subthread, and your boasting about the Muslim world’s erudition is off-topic here.
Even Columba Stewart would agree, like the rest of scholars engaged in matters of textual transmission, that the great majority of Latin and Greek writers that have come down to us today, came down through manuscript traditions in the Christian world, and the Muslim world has contributed only in a few cases.