The Schroedinger Equation is the most true thing I've ever encountered. It is clear, simple, obvious in its correctness; the greatest piece of physics since Maxwell. Once you've understood it it becomes almost impossible to imagine that the universe could possibly work any other way. (Contrary to this article's claim, the equation describes the behaviour of Helium atoms perfectly well; it's a failure of our imaginati…
What's natural about SE? From my limited understanding, SE tells us that all particles in the world are interconnected in a peculiar way by a "energy field" of some sort.
Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
121–130 of 171 posts
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#122Not sure I agree with him. What does something being real mean? It's got to mean that observations are consistent with the description of that something. That's actually all we can do, check that observations aren't disagreeing with what the model said. So if an electron is a tiny little thing that is deflected by a magnetic field, has a certain mass, etc, then it's real insofar as we observe those qualities. In the…
Physical theories often go beyond just predictions, and attempt to specify a correspondence between a formalism and physical reality. Quarks are an example. Quarks were conceptualized as a mathematical simplification, and only later were recognized as real physical things - or at least as real as protons. In QM we have physical quantities (an electron's mass) and unphysical quantities (an electron's phase). But there…
Reminds me of tunnelling. That's one of those "it's weird but the equation should work on the other side of the barrier" situations, lo and behold stuff goes through the barrier.
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a discontinuous boundary? That's news to me. It's pretty well known that classical mechanics is reproduced by quantum mechanics in the large scale. There's no discontinuity between the two. There's also a whole heap of people competing on trying to put ever and ever larger objects in superposition. Finally, decoherence has seen plenty of study and seems to be exactly what you're lamenting the lack of.
> There's a discontinuous boundary? That's news to me. I too find it unlikely that there is such a discontinuity. Quite a large number of physicists (and quantum computing people) seem to speak as if there is one. > Finally, decoherence has seen plenty of study I get the impression that decoherence is treated as merely a problem for technicians working on experimental apparatus, or an engineering issue to be dealt wi…
The reason they seem to speak that way is because they are being a little sloppy for the sake of brevity. The physicists all understand that there is a blurry boundary.
There is an amusing instance where there was a similar confusion though: the soft diffraction limit was mistaken by many for a hard one. So super-resulution came as a bit of a shock.
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
There's a discontinuous boundary? That's news to me. It's pretty well known that classical mechanics is reproduced by quantum mechanics in the large scale. There's no discontinuity between the two. There's also a whole heap of people competing on trying to put ever and ever larger objects in superposition. Finally, decoherence has seen plenty of study and seems to be exactly what you're lamenting the lack of.
> There's a discontinuous boundary? That's news to me. I too find it unlikely that there is such a discontinuity. Quite a large number of physicists (and quantum computing people) seem to speak as if there is one. > Finally, decoherence has seen plenty of study I get the impression that decoherence is treated as merely a problem for technicians working on experimental apparatus, or an engineering issue to be dealt wi…
We've been setting records for bigger and bigger superpositions every few years - apparently we're up to 2000 atoms now. There's no reason to suspect there's a fundamental limit, any more than there's a fundamental problem that prevents nuclear fusion from working. That doesn't mean the engineering isn't devilishly hard, maybe even impractical (if it gets literally exponentially harder to maintain more and more particles in superposition), but it's not a fundamental physics issue.
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's not at all a conflict. I am simply pointing out that where both of us observe/experience the pattern, your mind ascribes to it significance by relating it to the Mathematical construct called "Golden ratio". My mind doesn't make that relation. I call that pattern (and other patterns like it) a "snail shell pattern". We index the experience differently. From your perspective a Mathematical expression describes th…
It sounds like we understand it the same way, with different words.
Either way, we index the pattern in our respective minds.
You index (understand?) it as a "Golden ratio".
I index (understand?) it as a "snail shell".
Your understanding it Mathematically, I do not. Which is why I said that you assign Mathematical meaning to the pattern.
This is essentially what Linguistic relativism is all about: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
Neutrons are countable with integers. Waves -- even in classical mechanics -- are not "countable", and are best represented in physical models with a continuum, such as field of real numbers. They're fundamentally different. Quantum Mechanics glosses over this difference because when it was developed, this was too hard to deal with. A lot of people who briefly studied QM at an undergraduate level assume that it "keep…
> Neutrons are countable with integers. No, neutron observations in experiments are countable with integers. But the model that correctly predicts all those observations does not have "neutrons" that are countable with integers everywhere and at all times between observations. > including explaining why particles come in countable units. What observations of particles are you claiming that QM (which includes quantum…
Physics equations don't have "if (...) { ... }" conditionals in them. The Universe doesn't seem to run on Boolean algebra!
The rules that govern neutrons either apply everywhere, or nowhere.
If the number of neutrons weren't so thoroughly tied to integer quantities, then deuterium could spontaneously convert to tritium and would decay at some non-zero rate.[1]
A mental model that I like to use (but certainly isn't mainstream) is to think of fermions as topological flaws, much like knots. In this model bosons are like wiggles in the rope.
I like this model because Fermions are very robust to outside interference except when interacting with other Fermions. This is much like knots in a rope. No amount of rope wiggling will ever undo a knot.[2] However, when two knots meet on a rope they obey a kind of "knot algebra" with strange and interesting rules. Preon and Rishon models are an attempt to formalise the mathematics of this, and work surprisingly well.
Continuous transformations of a topological flaw in a 3D volume of the "fabric" of the universe has Spin, which is hard to introduce otherwise. Topological flaws in crystals have even been used to model General Relativity!
Obviously, reality is not a 1-D rope with knots (tell the String Theorists that!). My model of this is a block universe where the parallel universes form a continuum. The knots are point-like only if you take a 3D spatial slice through the higher-dimensional block[3]. However, this point-like behaviour can never 100% manifest physically, because only interactions with other particles can ever be used by in-universe observers.[4] These particles in turn are a continuum across parallel universes. Thus any interaction is essentially the product of two continuous functions with each other, not infinitesimally small points bouncing off of each other.
I know this may seem a bit... "out there", but it's just a minor variation on MWI with elements of Rishon theory sprinkled on top.
[1] I'm obviously pulling this example out of a hat, but you get the idea. I'm not aware of any experiment that can demonstrate neutron number changing in any circumstance other than high energy collisions, or particle exchange between hadrons. A neutron floating about in space will remain a neutron. You won't get two neutrons suddenly turning up where you had one before. More importantly, you can certainly never have fractional neutrons. You can have a fractional expectation of finding a neutron, but you'll find a whole neutron.
[2] This begs the question of how photon-photon pair production can create an electron-positron pair out of nothing! This is like a sufficiently strong wave looping the string back on itself to produce a pair of opposite-handed knots. If separated you can call them two particles if you wish. If you bring them together they "annihilate" to form a rope that's locally highly curved. The curvature flattens, racing outwards as wiggles. These are the gamma rays produced by an positron-electron interaction. Similarly, long-wavelength wiggles move the whole knot around, but very short-wavelength wiggles can loop around the knot and through it. This could explain how some particles interact, but only above certain energy levels.
[3] A common mental model of MWI or parallel universes is something akin to pages of the book with slightly different content printed on each page. But this traps the physicist into thinking that spatial slices can only go parallel to the pages. In my model there's no preferred direction or "grain", so any slice is valid! This means that observers will disagree on essentially all measurements, including particle number. However, all observers will agree that particle numbers are quantised, and all observers agree that the particles follow the same rules. They just disagree about particle histories and particle futures.
[4] The refusal of some physicists to admit that everything obeys QM rules is a disease of the field. Either everything is QM or nothing is. QM experiments don't end at the bench top. The equipment, the physicist, everything is a part of the wave function. This insight is critical, and forms the basis of RQM and MWI, but not mainstream QM as taught in most universities.
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
Mathematics is uniquely weird in that anywhere in the universe, a species can come up with the same things... So to say Mathematics is not real, and yet it is independently discoverable by anyone is just really weird to me.
afaik there's not even a lot of cross-cultural evidence for this, let alone cross-species, let alone pan-universal. what is or isn't considered math, or more specifically what kinds of reasoning are considered convincing/sound/etc have evolved a lot over history, and is continuing to do so. lakatos' 'proofs and refutations' is a nice short introduction to some of the issues involved here. long story short, what it re…
Much of what you point out is also what Quine identified in his paper "The two Dogmas of Empiricism" which is trivially the question "Is logic/mathematics empirical?". In my world-view inductive types (computations) are empirical.
But since you seem to be optimising for "pinning things precisely", general consensus/agreement may not be of any empirical value ;)
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#128It's a lovely mysterious incantation, like the (worked-over by Heaviside) Maxwell equations. But (used much like Latin), they don't speak to any human beings except those that have the leisure and capacity to learn all that math ... and then to acquire a voluminous mental store of evidence to apply it to. Real truth is plain. Newton's equations are approachable, closer to human experience and comprehension. Feynman's…
> Science is not math; it has no proofs. A couple of the earliest things I recall proving in physics classes: 1. acceleration due to gravity on earth g is the same ~9.8 m/s² for all objects whose mass is negligible compared to the mass of the earth. 2. if it weren't for atmospheric drag, thrown projectiles fall at velocities much smaller than the escape velocity would trace a parabolic curve. In what sense were these…
Scientific theories are used to support a wide range of phenomenon, but are later superceded by better theorems that can encompass more phenomena. Experimental evidence can provide support for the theory, can disprove a theory, but cannot prove the theory.
Unrelated to mathematical proofs, but there are counter examples for each of your statements.
1.
The acceleration due to gravity on earth is not constant, it varies depending on location (easy to experimentally refute that it's not 9.8 everywhere). For example, being on mount everest versus at sea level in the Arctic would give different rates of acceleration.
Adding a tilde in front of 9.8 m/s^2 doesn't help make the statement look like a proof.
2.
Given that acceleration due to gravity is not constant, then the trajectory will no longer be a parabolic curve.
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's natural about SE? From my limited understanding, SE tells us that all particles in the world are interconnected in a peculiar way by a "energy field" of some sort.
That would indeed by very unnatural. Fortunately that's nothing like what the Schrödinger equation says. The basics of quantum mechanics are: 1. Any system can be described in a linear "state space", whose basis vectors (roughly speaking) are each possible arrangement of the things being described (every thing's location). However, all possible states include (complex) linear combinations of these. This is usually de…
Re: Is the Schrödinger Equation True?
#130Earlier quoted context omitted.
What's natural about SE? From my limited understanding, SE tells us that all particles in the world are interconnected in a peculiar way by a "energy field" of some sort.
That would indeed by very unnatural. Fortunately that's nothing like what the Schrödinger equation says. The basics of quantum mechanics are: 1. Any system can be described in a linear "state space", whose basis vectors (roughly speaking) are each possible arrangement of the things being described (every thing's location). However, all possible states include (complex) linear combinations of these. This is usually de…