Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill • Hacker News Board

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#331

Post by cromka » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 4:53 AM UTC

Ericson2314 wrote: post #313

Wow, so increasingly illiberal Poland is now importing American notions of free speech in an act of right-wing solidarity or something? To be clear, I am basically a Free speech abolitionist, but I am very suspicious of the motivation here. I can't see a clean philosophy in corrupting the judiciary but claiming to support this.

There’s no good intention here: they’re protecting their own political party who uses the same deception and outright manipulation (read up on state propaganda TV) as Trump administration. They need the reach to continue to brain wash their constituents and so to avoid getting fact-checked and eventually banned by the social media like Trump was.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#332

Post by tptacek » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 5:01 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #329

tptacek wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A difference between us and Europe is that our country was founded on maintaining a separation between the state (which runs the schools we're talking about) and religion, and Germany wasn't. The entire premise of the Constitution --- really of any constitution --- is to insulate those kinds of governing principles from public opinion.

Article 137 of the Weimar constitution, which is part of the German Basic Law, says: “There shall be no state church.” I think the best reading of the Establishment Clause is that it prohibits exactly that, plus Congress also can’t regulate state established churches (which existed at the time). See: https://scholarlycommons.law.hofstra.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi... https://startingpointsjournal.com/what-is-the-original…

I stand corrected, with respect to Germany! Thanks!

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#333

Post by root_axis » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 5:08 AM UTC

j0ba wrote: post #299

root_axis wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't agree they don't have to use it. It's dishonest because the characterization suggests that sovereign nations are beholden to tech companies, but they aren't.

If Facebook/Twitter doesn't agree to the law, they don't have to operate in Poland. Nobody is forcing them.

Correct. So if anything Facebook/Twitter are beholden to these governments, not the other way around, they could simply block these megacorps if they were inclined to do so. I'm sure that would make many Polish tech founders very happy.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#334

Post by root_axis » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 5:12 AM UTC

SulfurHexaFluri wrote: post #330

root_axis wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't agree they don't have to use it. It's dishonest because the characterization suggests that sovereign nations are beholden to tech companies, but they aren't.

They also don't have to allow foreign tech companies to operate in their country without following local laws. US tech companies hold almost as much power in these smaller countries as the government does. Facebook could easily sway an election if it tries.

> They also don't have to allow foreign tech companies to operate in their country without following local laws.

Exactly right. So it's wrong to say that these governments are beholden to the tech companies, they could simply block them if wanted to, and perhaps they should, but either way it's obviously wrong to say that these governments are beholden.

> Facebook could easily sway an election if it tries.

So could the people being banned by Facebook. What's your point here?

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#335

Post by SulfurHexaFluri » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 5:44 AM UTC

root_axis wrote: post #334

SulfurHexaFluri wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also don't have to allow foreign tech companies to operate in their country without following local laws. US tech companies hold almost as much power in these smaller countries as the government does. Facebook could easily sway an election if it tries.

> They also don't have to allow foreign tech companies to operate in their country without following local laws. Exactly right. So it's wrong to say that these governments are beholden to the tech companies, they could simply block them if wanted to, and perhaps they should, but either way it's obviously wrong to say that these governments are beholden. > Facebook could easily sway an election if it tries. So could t…

There is a step between banning and giving a free for all which is requiring that social media follow local laws with the threat of being banned for non compliance.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#336

Post by logicchains » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

intended wrote: post #257

scotty79 wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simply put, the average person is not prepared for lawyer level rhetorical devices in the wild. Maybe we should figure out how to educate people to prepare them? Can we really build our safety on our ability to keep stupid people ignorant of stupid ideas? I think that's the kind of security through obscurity that is currently failing us so hard. Stupid people are finding stupid ideas anyways, sharing them, building…

People aren't code. Plus you dont see people exposing themselves to prions or the plague. More pertinently, you could argue that we shouldn't worry about sociopaths, and that if they convince or charm someone - that's just bad luck, and it boosts people's immunity. Why did we worry about lootboxes or attention manipulating algorithms? Because when its not a fair fight, the outcome is not fair. If I sent you up agains…

>People aren't code. Plus you dont see people exposing themselves to prions or the plague.

Aren't vaccines kind of this: deliberately exposing people to something harmful so they'll have more immunity against a stronger version if they encounter it later?

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#337

Post by tomaszs » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

kennywinker wrote: post #216

zozbot234 wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one sensible is accusing "the Polish state" or "the Polish people" of being involved with the Holocaust, and the Wikipedia page itself doesn't state anything like that. The law is aimed at hateful idiocy like talking about the supposed "Polish death camps", as opposed to the tragically real Nazi death camps in Nazi-occupied Poland.

The wikipedia page I linked to clearly points out that polish people WERE involved in the holocaust. Not all, in fact I believe the vast majority of poles were not collaborators... but that doesn't mean this law doesn't make it legally sketchy to talk about the poles who were collaborators

Polish people were exterminated on a daily basis by German nazis. Over 5 million Poles were brutally killed. It is hard to miss German attack and occupation of Poland aim was also to depopulate it from polish people.

Collaborators were punished because they were traitors and everyone seen and sees them like such.

Below is a link to a Wikipedia where you can learn more:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Poland_(1939%E2%8...

I hope you will understand how offensive and false your comment is.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#338

Post by wesleywt » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 6:02 AM UTC

If you are looking for 1984 levels of double speak, then this is it.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#339

Post by olliej » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 6:29 AM UTC

radoslawc wrote: post #298

kennywinker wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, under this law a post mentioning true facts about nazi collaboration in poland during ww2 would be illegal.

Aren't facts true per definition?

Plenty of countries pass laws stating the the truth is propaganda - the US equivalent would be calling it Fake News, only they'd actually legally prohibit anything the gov says is fake news.

Re: Poland Justice Minister announces online freedom of speech bill

#340

Post by olliej » Tue, Jan 12, 2021, 6:32 AM UTC

b0rsuk wrote: post #242

cygx wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note the last part of that article, though[1]: You're also not allowed to refer to camps like Zgoda or Jaworzno - which were labour camps operated by poles on behalf of the communist regime - as 'Polish concentration camps'. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22Polish_death_camp%22_contro...

I'll tell you a secret. Poles are exceptionally adept at duplicity and censoring their history. Chopin, Konopnicka were likely gay? LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU! Józef Bem converted to Islam and still acted like a Polish patriot? Let's talk about something else. Such and such poets or composers etc were jewish? You're either a Jew or a Polish Catholic, obviously. Poland never attacked any countries. Poland didn't init…

it's getting downvoted because you said this in the most racist sounding way possible.

"Various polish governments have done XYZ" vs. "polish people lie". It's similar to "Israel does XYZ to Palestinians" vs "Jews want XYZ to happen to Palestinians" (to use a common antisemitic trope trying to justify antisemitism)