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Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

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Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#211

Post by TeMPOraL »

BurningFrog wrote: post #158
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The market tends to give consumers what they want. The market tends to give consumers what they buy . This is distinct from what they ask for , which too is distinct from what they want , which too is distinct from what they like (and, while we're at it, from what they approve of).

It's very hard to know what people, including yourself, really want. So best we can do is observing "revealed preferences", which is what Economists call "what people actually choose".

And "revealed preferences" are mostly bunk, because of what GP alludes to. It's evaluating people's choices out of options available on the market, not what they would buy if they could freely optimize the feature/price matrix. Another way to put it: "revealed preference" is just what one considers the least bad of the bad choices available.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#212

Post by varjag »

paradox242 wrote: post #119
fridek wrote: post #5

I can't describe how much I hope something comes out of it. Not because I have some illusion of this tackling corporate greed, or helping the environment - devices will likely become more expensive and bulkier as a result, supply chain of replacement parts is generating heaps of waste too. I simply am surrounded by tens and hundreds of sort-of-broken devices that don't force me to replace yet, but are not fixable eit…

Common things that existed 20, 30, or even 40 years like refrigerators, coffee machines, dishwashers, washers, and dryers, often lasted 10 or 20 years in some cases, and could be repaired. We have witnessed the steep decline of device reliability in my lifetime, and our expectations are so low that the latest appliance we buy we consider lucky if no problems develop in 2-3 years. Anything serious requires you to usua…

About any fridge you buy now would last a decade easily. Several decades even, if you bother to invest into its maintenance and repair like people did 40 years ago.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#213

Post by yoran »

Regulations like this are great and I applaud them. But they do harm innovation, because often the cost to become compliant with such new regulations is fixed. So the cost for a large corporation to be compliant is roughly similar to the cost of a startup to be compliant. This makes it comparatively harder for startups to get going and thereby gives large companies an unfair advantage. This stifles competition and innovation.

We are seeing this first-hand with our startup in the EU investment space. The costs to be compliant with the various regulations (MiFID, AML, etc...) are mostly fixed, so they're a lot harder for small firms to implement such as ourselves than for large firms. That's also why a lot of smaller firms are merging into larger firms.

As a solution, there should be relaxed regulations for startups. They would have to be fully compliant only once they reach a certain scale.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#214

Post by TeMPOraL »

ogre_codes wrote: post #199
hippich wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You guys are forgetting another part of the chain, which can make decisions - consumers. If cost of throwing something away increases - may be that will make consumers choose something more reliable and serviceable. As if right now residential trash pickup service probably covers just the labor and machinery to get trash to the landfill

They tried that with televisions in California. The result? Televisions are one of the most common forms of road trash now. Often on the way to/ from the dump. As soon as you charge someone to get rid of something, the temptation to just dump it on the side of the road increases.

Roads, or rivers. In rural areas of Poland, it's still common to find illegal trash dumps in the woods or by the streams; any ditch will do. And there goes everything, from biowaste to furniture and television sets.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#215

Post by wizzwizz4 »

BurningFrog wrote: post #158
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The market tends to give consumers what they want. The market tends to give consumers what they buy . This is distinct from what they ask for , which too is distinct from what they want , which too is distinct from what they like (and, while we're at it, from what they approve of).

It's very hard to know what people, including yourself, really want. So best we can do is observing "revealed preferences", which is what Economists call "what people actually choose".

Have you tried asking pe— sorry, “market research”? If you can make something that people want to pay for, that goes down a lot better than trying to make them buy what you're selling via an elaborate multi-agent optimisation algorithm.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#216

Post by mytailorisrich »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #211
BurningFrog wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very hard to know what people, including yourself, really want. So best we can do is observing "revealed preferences", which is what Economists call "what people actually choose".

And "revealed preferences" are mostly bunk, because of what GP alludes to. It's evaluating people's choices out of options available on the market, not what they would buy if they could freely optimize the feature/price matrix. Another way to put it: "revealed preference" is just what one considers the least bad of the bad choices available.

Perhaps but that should be an unstable equilibrium, i.e. temporary.

As long as real competition exist, if it is possible to deliver what consumers really want then sooner or later someone will discover it, make a killing and prompt everyone in the market to follow suit or die.

It's easy to blame corporations but in fine I believe that the current situation has been driven by the choices of the consumers, i.e. all of us.

Sure we want better quality, repairability, longevity, but we also want cheaper, among other things. I think product ranges simply reflect where our priorities really lie.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#217

Post by JoshTko »

This doesn't make sense. I have sold every single iPhone that I have owned (about 6), and virtually all were 100% functional at time of sale. Making the products openable will likely to make them heavier, more expensive, larger, and more prone to damage (i.e., water damage), and thus less durable overall. I don't want this as a consumer as it will lead to more waste.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#218

Post by ogre_codes »

tshaddox wrote: post #205
ogre_codes wrote: post #164

I kind of wonder if we're looking at solving this the wrong way. Instead of mandating that manufacturers take specific steps to fix the waste problem, maybe it would be better to tag items at manufacture and charge device makers a percentage based on how long before it enters the waste stream. Manufacturers could solve this by either: - Making their things easy to repair - Creating in house recycling programs - Makin…

Or go even a step further and directly address the fundamental problem, which is externalities. "Time to entering waste stream" still isn't the fundamental "end result" to optimize. Just require that the cost of plastic and other materials includes the cost of safe disposal or recycling, just like the cost of gasoline ought to include the cost of the externalities of burning it.

Sure. I'd be all for a more generic waste tax. Include the cost of packaging and as you suggest, the carbon cost of shipping it too.

I do think any reduction due to a manufacturer recycling/ remanufacturing goods should be reflected in whatever fees are charged.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#219

Post by ogre_codes »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #214
ogre_codes wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They tried that with televisions in California. The result? Televisions are one of the most common forms of road trash now. Often on the way to/ from the dump. As soon as you charge someone to get rid of something, the temptation to just dump it on the side of the road increases.

Roads, or rivers. In rural areas of Poland, it's still common to find illegal trash dumps in the woods or by the streams; any ditch will do. And there goes everything, from biowaste to furniture and television sets.

Yeah. One of the places I ride has a few very conspicuous dumps of obvious construction trash and it is extremely irritating. In this case, it's a bunch of asphalt roofing... very heavy and likely expensive at the dump.

Its bad enough I almost think we should just eliminate all dump fees and charge everything upstream. If you charge for disposal at the time of sale, then you don't need to charge at the time of disposal. Then you remove the incentive to dump elsewhere.

Re: Europe Is Guaranteeing Citizens the Right to Repair

#220

Post by tjoff »

ryandrake wrote: post #208
ogre_codes wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Local authorities should be able to collect up all Mcdonalds packaging and hand it back to them. Absolutely! It is far too easy to create disposable crap that ends up dumped all over the planet. I get so frustrated seeing garbage all over the place in natural places. I do think its a lot easier to focus on the higher ticket items first.

The amount of plastic and paper packaging/marketing that you are forced to accept and dispose of when you buy products is getting extreme. I recently bought a micro-sd card, and had to dispose of: 1. the large shipping package, 2. the enormous (in volume and mass) product plastic shell package, 3. the glossy paper marketing insert inside the package, 4. the user’s manual (!), 5. the unwanted microsd-to-sd adapter. Pr…

As a consumer though you could also have bought it in a store or waited until you needed something else as well.

I never understood the mindset of buying only a usb-stick or similar online.

Yes, the waste is obnoxious, but the consumer isn't always innocent either.

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