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Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

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Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#141

Post by adrian_b »

glogla wrote: post #134
adrian_b wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison is not valid. For example my phones use Android, but I do not have a Google account. There exists no legal action that could be done by Google and that could influence anything that I am using my phone for. On the other hand, if Visa and Mastercard would decide to not let me buy something, that would be very bad for me, because I buy almost nothing with cash and most things that interest me could not b…

For a common person, Google/Apple cartel is about as much unavoidable as Visa/MC one. You are one of the very few exceptions - just as there are surely exceptional people who can do financial transactions that avoid Visa/MC. Society is not math or computer science where existence of one counterexample makes things invalid. Society is a thing of ratios and percentages. If something is almost impossible for most people…

I am an exception just in the sense that every time when I buy a new phone I reject many times the insistent suggestions of Android to open a Google account and to enable Google Services / Google Play, until Android gives up and bothers me no more.

I do not need extra apps from the Google Store, because all the phones that I buy do the things that I need, e.g. voice calls, SMS messages, Internet browsing, photo/video recording, document reading, etc., without needing to install anything else. Things like Google Maps can be accessed in the browser, there is no need for an app.

So it is not difficult to avoid Google.

To avoid Visa and MC, one would need exceptional connections, because most online shops do not accept other methods of payment and it would not be easy to convince them to create a special method for you.

I choose wire transfers whenever I can instead of credit cards. For payments within the country there are no fees, but for payments to other countries, the fees are larger than for credit cards and the vendors are less likely to have wire transfers as an alternative method of payment.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#142

Post by Bakary »

ars wrote: post #116
folli wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm getting slightly fatigued with this point of view ("X is a private company and can do what it wants"). If a company reaches a certain size and has a quasi-monopolistic position so that other people or companies depend on it, it starts to have some degree of responsibility towards society that's beyond value maximization for shareholders.

Does that mean you are against AWS, Google, and Apple shutting down Perler? All of those are large enough, and are quasi-monopolistic to meet your definition.

I don't see the point of closing Parler. It was a perfect platform to monitor those people and gather them in the same place. Now it will be more difficult.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#143

Post by manigandham »

adrian_b wrote: post #141
glogla wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a common person, Google/Apple cartel is about as much unavoidable as Visa/MC one. You are one of the very few exceptions - just as there are surely exceptional people who can do financial transactions that avoid Visa/MC. Society is not math or computer science where existence of one counterexample makes things invalid. Society is a thing of ratios and percentages. If something is almost impossible for most people…

I am an exception just in the sense that every time when I buy a new phone I reject many times the insistent suggestions of Android to open a Google account and to enable Google Services / Google Play, until Android gives up and bothers me no more. I do not need extra apps from the Google Store, because all the phones that I buy do the things that I need, e.g. voice calls, SMS messages, Internet browsing, photo/video…

Just because you avoid Google (and go far out of your way to do so) doesn't mean it's the same for billions of other people on the planet (and Google is far more than some apps on your phone). Likewise billions of people also use cash or other payment tech more often than Visa/MC and are not in the same situation as you.

This is why personal anecdotes are meaningless for these topics.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#144

Post by eznzt »

folli wrote: post #71
manigandham wrote: post #11

Similar to the recent actions by Twitter, Google, Apple and Amazon; Visa and Mastercard are private companies and can do whatever they want. Anyone who has an issue with what Visa/MC did must also take issue with the others.

I'm getting slightly fatigued with this point of view ("X is a private company and can do what it wants"). If a company reaches a certain size and has a quasi-monopolistic position so that other people or companies depend on it, it starts to have some degree of responsibility towards society that's beyond value maximization for shareholders.

I think the comment you are replying to is meant to be sarcastic.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#145

Post by manigandham »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #132
manigandham wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're arbitrarily discounting alternatives to fit your narrative. If you think that ACH or Amex is less accessible then that's no different than other networks not having the same scale or distribution as Twitter and Apple. Why is it ok for some but not others when they all technically have alternatives? Anyways my greater point is that illegal actions should be forwarded to the appropriate state department which ca…

ACH takes longer than 24 hours, so there's no goal post moving there. As I indicated below, I think it is pretty hard to get paid via Amex if Visa/MC have blocked you (3rd party payment processors such as paypal will likely block you too). I would agree about the "forward to the government" part if that was part of normal business to find the illegal actions. I read the Visa/MC - Pornhub thing as more as a case of of…

They wouldn't be complicit. The legal structure allows companies to operate with protection from their users engaging in illegal activities until it's explicitly proven or otherwise ordered by the state.

The "we think it's clear" is the dangerous part, especially when applied outside of a few easy targets discussed here. MC/Visa have numerous examples of shutting down completely legitimate businesses, and so do Google and Apple usually with a weekly HN thread highlighting yet another startup/app unceremoniously wiped off the net. Either it's all a problem or none of it is. Do you disagree with this?

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#146

Post by elliekelly »

pdkl95 wrote: post #124
elliekelly wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DZfUzxZ2VU Both the video for interviews and the bibliography links in the description.

Surely you’re joking. Is this person a sex worker? Or do they have any qualifications to speak on the subject of sex work? Because it seems like a channel dedicated to alt-right/far-right talking points and I don’t consider a Steve Bannon superfan to be an authoritative speaker on the topic of what sex workers want when it comes to their safety.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#147

Post by commandlinefan »

ars wrote: post #116
folli wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm getting slightly fatigued with this point of view ("X is a private company and can do what it wants"). If a company reaches a certain size and has a quasi-monopolistic position so that other people or companies depend on it, it starts to have some degree of responsibility towards society that's beyond value maximization for shareholders.

Does that mean you are against AWS, Google, and Apple shutting down Perler? All of those are large enough, and are quasi-monopolistic to meet your definition.

I honestly can’t think of a better example of the egregious abuse of quasi-monopolistic power than the shutting down of Parler.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#148

Post by anigbrowl »

marcinzm wrote: post #41
anigbrowl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can get paid reliably then abusers have less leverage in the first place. I've been friends with a lot of sex workers and their #1 gripe is that prohibitionist types create the conditions for abuse.

A lot of the people being mentioned as abused aren't sex workers and do not want to be sex workers. They don't want to be paid for or involved in sex work.

My argument is that the criminalization of sex work is what incentivizes abusive people to set up criminal enterprises around it.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#149

Post by urbandw311er »

I noticed that a lot of the porn actors sticking up for Pornhub were the ones putting out their own home-grown content, who essentially benefit from Pornhub as a publishing platform.

Rather than ones with pre-existing professionally published content who have seen their revenue and livelihoods decimated by the tacit acceptance of illegally pirated material that is essentially Pornhub’s business model.

Re: Sex workers say 'defunding Pornhub' puts their livelihoods at risk

#150

Post by marcinzm »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #81
marcinzm wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OnlyFans seems to be having no issues. I do find it funny how "this site is filled with a lot of rape and child porn" is being framed as "it's being cancelled for no reason." No, there is a reason and other sites with better policies aren't being targeted.

> I do find it funny how "this site is filled with a lot of rape and child porn" is being framed as "it's being cancelled for no reason." It's because this is the wrong way to deal with that issue. The fairly obviously correct way to do it is that you have law enforcement investigate instances of child pornography, arrest the creators for it, and then issue a court order to the hosting sites to remove the specific in…

Most legal systems have concepts of being an accomplice, criminal negligence, constructive possession and so on. So it seems reasonable that a website which help crimes be committed or hosts illegal content on its servers should have some liability or requirements on taking reasonable preventive measures. Especially if the website is made aware that such crimes are being committed.
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