Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012) • Hacker News Board

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#81

Post by SantalBlush » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:06 PM UTC

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #53

jsmcgd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's why an education has to be broad. A selective education can be tantamount to brainwashing/propaganda. Give the students as many perspectives and hope that they will do something sensible as they process the information; knowing that not all will, but most. I believe that the more perspectives you are aware of, the less likely you are to be dogmatic and extreme in your beliefs and actions. You will be r…

> Give the students as many perspectives and hope that they will do something sensible as they process the information I don’t know if you’ve gone to college recently but that was not my impression. It’s a woke monoculture. Discourse is gone.

Discourse is narrower than you'd like; that doesn't mean it's "gone". When someone makes extraordinary claims like "Discourse is gone," that is a red flag that they are not viewing the situation objectively.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#82

Post by mrfusion » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

inglor_cz wrote: post #21

74d-fe6-2c6 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a) 50 years is enough for "institutional memory" to go out of the window. This may change with longevity breakthroughs, but 50 years is currently enough for a complete generation exchange, so the new leaders have no memory of the previous upheaval and will make the same mistakes again. Or at least the same kind of mistakes, details are always different. That's why education is the most important pillar of democracy…

"That's why education is the most important pillar of democracy. Education is everything. " The kind of people who get into positions of power - well, my impression is that they think they know better. Even if they are aware of the fact that in 1930 someone fucked up, they will not entertain the fact that they themselves might do the same. Also, some events are really complex. You can educate people about the 1929 or…

The most educated people I know seem the most partisan right now and most likely to parrot main stream media talking points.

It’s making me question my assumptions about education. On the other hand Im just one data point.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#83

Post by thatguy0900 » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:12 PM UTC

anewaccount2021 wrote: post #78

klyrs wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bush II's "No Child Left Behind" was replaced by Obama's "Race to the Top" was followed by DeVos's "invisible hand." The common thread in all of these education policies is that schools that are doing well get rewarded; schools that are underperforming get the same, or reduced funding, or get closed. To get better educated voters, you need better education for poorest performing students -- not more investment in the…

Once again - the best educated voter still only has two choices, and neither of these represent the poor. Do people on HN really think the very rich or the very poor were at all bothered by the Capitol riots? Government is irrelevant to both groups, in different ways.

Judging by the unanimous and immediate technocrat and media response to the capitol riot I would wager the rich are very concerned about it. I agree noone wealthy seemed all that concerned about the riots before that

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#84

Post by rwcarlsen » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:14 PM UTC

dehrmann wrote: post #73

rho4 wrote: post #61

I feel like an important often missed variable is what part of the population is actually not having enough food & shelter or not able to support their family.

Also work and leisure. Covid hit both of those. Bored, unemployed people are more likely to protest, and protesters are more likely to riot.

I think you meant - covid mitigations hit both of those.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#85

Post by aksss » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:21 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #50

onethought wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, if you are on the right (political spectrum) you do not want to encourage higher education, it shifts people to the left, as analytical thinking starts undoing idealism. US is a good example of this, with most universities having more left communities around them. Perhaps it is an intentional long play by the Right in Australia to pursue this kind of minimisation of education

I think that’s a mistake, because while I agree there’s a left lean among academics, I don’t think that necessarily translates into the graduate population generally. Conservatism needs educated leaders as well anyway. If there is a problem there the answer is balancing out education, not reducing it.

Diversity of thought in the education system is a problem - like hires like, and is demonstratively intolerant of challenge, so the dominant mood gets entrenched. If the political poles were reversed (conservatives dominating education) this would be just as much of a problem - it’s a function of human behavior.

(UCLA’s) Eugene Volokh’s blog has been examining this for some time from the perspective of legal education, and of course Bret Weinstein rather famously came into contact with it when (literally) run out of Evergreen.

I remember we used to make jokes about how off the wall Evergreen was, but now I think those things we used to laugh about have become more normalized. They are certainly avant garde, but it seems the tendency of entrenchment dictates that where Evergreen goes so goes the nation’s education system. If you want to see where the nation’s education will be in another 15-20 years, look no further than Evergreen today.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#86

Post by Izkata » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:22 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #40

inglor_cz wrote: post #2

Turchin's two main ideas are intriguing. a) 50 years is enough for "institutional memory" to go out of the window. This may change with longevity breakthroughs, but 50 years is currently enough for a complete generation exchange, so the new leaders have no memory of the previous upheaval and will make the same mistakes again. Or at least the same kind of mistakes, details are always different. b) elite overproduction…

>at the 25+ crowd with fresh degrees, tons of debt and not-precisely-excellent earning opportunities There are numerous studies and theories saying that late 19th-early 20th century revolutions wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been coordinated by educated people who hadn't found a stable job (mostly as government employees, not that many private white-collar jobs back then). The Russian revolution definitely wou…

Kinda fits the current US situation too: The political violence isn't as new as a lot of people seem to believe - it started years ago, on college/university campuses. While that early violence was done by the students, several times people got videos of their professors in the crowd helping to coordinate.

Once that became normalized it spilled off campus and grew into what we're seeing now.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#87

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:23 PM UTC

anewaccount2021 wrote: post #75

paganel wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>at the 25+ crowd with fresh degrees, tons of debt and not-precisely-excellent earning opportunities There are numerous studies and theories saying that late 19th-early 20th century revolutions wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been coordinated by educated people who hadn't found a stable job (mostly as government employees, not that many private white-collar jobs back then). The Russian revolution definitely wou…

All of the Bolsheviks were well-read. Even their token thug, Stalin, was probably reading political theory at what we would describe as a doctoral level. While Lenin did not respect Stalin as an intellectual peer, we do know that he spent a great deal of time pouring over dense political tomes. No TV, radio, internet...people read books to entertain themselves. But, to put a fine point on it, the Russian Revolution h…

[deleted]

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#88

Post by kaitai » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

anewaccount2021 wrote: post #78

klyrs wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bush II's "No Child Left Behind" was replaced by Obama's "Race to the Top" was followed by DeVos's "invisible hand." The common thread in all of these education policies is that schools that are doing well get rewarded; schools that are underperforming get the same, or reduced funding, or get closed. To get better educated voters, you need better education for poorest performing students -- not more investment in the…

Once again - the best educated voter still only has two choices, and neither of these represent the poor. Do people on HN really think the very rich or the very poor were at all bothered by the Capitol riots? Government is irrelevant to both groups, in different ways.

The best educated voter -- any voter in fact -- can also run for office and transform the party.

I dislike the rhetoric you're using that implies the parties are outside and beyond the reach of "normal" citizens. Of course they are institutions with substantial inertia and aims of their own. But as the elections of people as diverse as Cori Bush and Madison Cawthorne and Marjorie Taylor Greene show, it is certainly still possible to make your way from citizen to elected official.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#89

Post by jimktrains2 » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:28 PM UTC

wilsonfiifi wrote: post #14

insert_coin wrote: post #7

As they say, history does not repeat itself, but it rhymes.

That's brilliant! I wholeheartedly agree. In case anyone wonders where this saying comes from, my quick search attributes it to Margaret Atwood, from her book "The Testaments" [0]. [0] https://niemanstoryboard.org/stories/as-they-say-history-does-not-repeat-itself-but-it-rhymes/

The quote is much older than the testements.

Re: Will the US experience a violent upheaval in 2020? (2012)

#90

Post by anewaccount2021 » Sun, Jan 10, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

kaitai wrote: post #88

anewaccount2021 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again - the best educated voter still only has two choices, and neither of these represent the poor. Do people on HN really think the very rich or the very poor were at all bothered by the Capitol riots? Government is irrelevant to both groups, in different ways.

The best educated voter -- any voter in fact -- can also run for office and transform the party. I dislike the rhetoric you're using that implies the parties are outside and beyond the reach of "normal" citizens. Of course they are institutions with substantial inertia and aims of their own. But as the elections of people as diverse as Cori Bush and Madison Cawthorne and Marjorie Taylor Greene show, it is certainly s…

You need look no further than the concerted and organized effort to shut-down Bernie Sanders twice, and frankly he isn't even particularly radical. No one you mentioned represents a meaningful threat to the status quo - America has a single ruling class and the Capitol is their museum.