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Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

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Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#521

Post by aksss »

gamblor956 wrote: post #391
Mountain_Skies wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already know from history what happens when large groups are disenfranchised from the public sphere. Violence. Lots of it. And once it starts, it's not easily stopped. Some welcome this because they think it can be managed for their own purposes. But once civil order breaks down, things simply accelerate with no possibility of talk being able to stop it anymore. It takes on a life of its own. Those who dream of th…

These groups became violent while still enfranchised. And they're still enfranchised: they can still vote, and still post to the internet, and still talk to people outside. They simply no longer get a free internet loud speaker to envangelize to others.

We've spent a couple years now (right?) tacitly approving rioting as an acceptable response to feeling disenfranchised. Now we're surprised when the same medicine gets used by others. For either side, I'm not sure it's proper minimize their complaints. If the BLM crowd says they have a serious problem with police violence, the best reaction is, "what can we do to restore confidence?" Similarly, when 40% of the country says they have serious concerns about the integrity of voting in this country the proper response isn't "everything is okay", it's "what can we do to restore confidence?".

The lesson here is to condemn all rioting, set expectations that are equally applied to all segments of society. Listen to those feeling alienated and see what can be reasonably done to promote inclusiveness. It's hard to take advocates of inclusiveness seriously when they eagerly cancel, disenfranchise, and deplatform people that disagree with them even remotely (and yes, there are plenty of examples of rational criticism being deplatformed).

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#522

Post by Asparagirl »

nicbou wrote: post #303
AsyncAwait wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you're saying but the other side of the coin is maybe the society at large is rejecting them. And they need to understand that they're not guaranteed an audience, If the society at large doesn't want to listen then they'll have to sloowly try to win some support. They seem to forget that many on the left fought tooth and nail historically for things we now consider for granted but society wasn't on board f…

If they were a fringe movement I'd be inclined to agree, but they're half the voter base. They can't possibly all be violent bigots.

Half of the US fought for the right to own other humans as property. You are very, very sheltered if you think large numbers of people aren't capable of holding terrible ideas and performing horrific acts.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#523

Post by JohnCohorn »

mlyle wrote: post #333
core-questions wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We've reached the point where the American left is afraid of the idea of free speech. Not only that, but people like you and me who comment in defense of it are fading from the major platforms. For each of us who grew up with free speech as the cornerstone right in a free and just society, there seem to be many others who did not ever care about this, or actively seek to destroy it for the benefit of their own grou…

I'm concerned about major platforms gaining in power as gatekeepers of everyday communication, but-- I don't believe any party should be compelled to repeat your speech. It wasn't that way in 1791 and it shouldn't be that way now. I do think that Twitter and Facebook need to be exceptionally careful and use their powers more sparingly, but there's absolutely no reason that they should have to repeat people literally…

Freedom of speech shouldn’t necessarily be compelled by law to be allowed by online platforms. But freedom of speech is not just a legal principle and individual right, but considered by many of us to be a core American cultural value. It seems reasonable for there to be public outcry and negative response to a company suppressing free speech. Free speech doesn’t include provable lies or inciting imminent violence which unfortunately I believe occurred this week.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#524

Post by Tokkemon »

jpttsn wrote: post #496
Tokkemon wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's far more likely that half the population has been duped into following someone because of clever conniving. Trump knew exactly what to do to build up that base and now that their head is gone, the chicken is running around in the yard with no direction wondering what the hell happened. Once the dust settles, I think a lot of those people will reintegrate into society, especially if they start to receive the bene…

I very rarely hear this hope expressed and I struggle to believe it—can you elaborate?

I don't doubt that so many people on the right are hurting. Their constant accusations of being called the "fly-over states" is totally true. There is endless rural decay, industry is gone. When life is difficult like that, it is very easy to pine for a time gone past when things were better. But now it's gotten so bad that people are desperate. COVID-19 has made it much worse, and people don't want to follow restrictions as it could be an existential threat. So they try and latch on to the one guy that is rich, because they are not; the one guy that talks straight, tells them what they want to hear. And they fall for him, and pledge their support. Combine that with a severely underfunded education system where people don't think critically and just think to tests or drop out, people can be swayed easily. Just look at the people at the Capitol riot. These people are not smart and thoughtful, you can tell by their incoherent ramblings. They have been incited by their environment. Yes they chose to go to DC and they deserve to be punished for it, but I can sympathize with what brought them to this place. The problem is Republicans are so bad at dealing with those issues, because they require broad-based governmental programs since private enterprise has abandoned those communities.

My optimistic hope is that with a few years of widespread governance by the Democratic party, we may see some wide-reaching assistance reach these people. Get education reformed, get police reformed. Teach these people that hating black people actually causes their own outcomes to get worse. Support their businesses that they have had to scrape together. Pass widespread healthcare reform so healthcare is accessible to all, not just the rich. Build up people, don't tear them down. And, most importantly in the short term, vaccinate the whole country to get past this COVID-19 pandemic so the economy can get back to full strength. I think once that happens, and the Trumpers have some time to grieve from the loss of their former leader, these people will come back to the fold and see that hate isn't a useful method of getting what they need.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#525

Post by Quinner »

nicbou wrote: post #11

Someone brought an interesting perspective in another thread and I can't shake it off. The other side keeps deplatforming them. Their legal cases are rejected. The mainstream media refuses to take them seriously. We're not even listening to them, because it's science and they're *ists if they disagree. We're not debating anymore. We just assume we're right. We are slowly squeezing a significant segment of the populat…

Five years ago civil society was in general agreement that racism was bad and that we should respect the democratic process instead of seeking to violently overthrow it. Of course there were people who disagreed but they were at the margins and their voices were isolated to a few forums most people never heard of.

A demagogue came along and used mass media platforms to destabilize the norms of civil society and give a large platform to previously marginalized views. Being able to air those views on mainstream outlets perpetuates the problem and shifts norms.

We need to at least try to put this genie back in the bottle. Most people will revert back to previous mainstream views. The significant segment needs to go back to an insignificant segment. That insignificant segment will be angry that they didn't win, and likely some of them will be violent. But they've always been that way anyway.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#526

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

botwriter wrote: post #279
nicbou wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is what reddit, twitter and Hacker News reinforce constantly. It's either because it's true, or because the other side has been repeatedly discouraged from adding their two cents in those communities. I've been seeing the world through this lens for so long that I can't tell. I find it somewhat implausible that half the population is dumb, racist and all those other labels. It seems much more likely that I…

Why does the left have to censor the right? Surely they should be able to beat the right with logical and reasoned arguments? Censorship has always struck me as a tool that a side which isn't confident in its arguments uses.

A significant number of people are threatened by rational critical thinking. They instill these values in their children who then they go off on raving rampages touting false patriotism. You can't make them listen. Taking away their echo chambers is the only way to cool them off.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#527

Post by LetsPlayNice »

ratww wrote: post #438
botwriter wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does the left have to censor the right? Surely they should be able to beat the right with logical and reasoned arguments? Censorship has always struck me as a tool that a side which isn't confident in its arguments uses.

A large portion of extremists are not willing to discuss the results of the election even with other Republicans. People were calling Pence a traitor, boycotting Fox, etc. Those people are not willing to talk to or listen to anyone who's supposedly on their side but has a different opinion. What makes you think they will listen to the "other side"?

I understand what you're saying, but in my limited experience, it appears it isn't exactly what information is being presented so much as How it is presented. Often I see some with a differing opinion begin along the lines of: "You're an idiot Trumper, you're killing the planet!!" How about begin with a question to engage? For example: " why is it you think climate change doesn't exist? From the studies I've seen, I was convinced. " That's better right?

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#528

Post by leshenka »

dilap wrote: post #515
tempsy wrote: post #23

Suddenly half the population is realizing the cons of centralized platforms. Curious if this moment sparks renewed interest in decentralized tech of yesteryear ie the good ol world wide web.

What good does that do you if the best hardware is locked down and they won't allow decentralized apps, though? If the web were invented today, there's not a chance in hell Apple would approve a web browser as an app. If you really think about that, I think you'll agree that current app store policies are harmful to innovation and harmful to society as a whole. At the end of the day, tech can only get you so far. You…

> there's not a chance in hell Apple would approve a web browser as an app

Thankfully, there is a web browser.

But corporations want us to use apps instead of web browser to restrict this. Like, everything must be an app. Every social network basically forces their app down your throat. "Ew you use a browser, what a loser"

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#529

Post by leppr »

Tokkemon wrote: post #454
nicbou wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, that is what reddit, twitter and Hacker News reinforce constantly. It's either because it's true, or because the other side has been repeatedly discouraged from adding their two cents in those communities. I've been seeing the world through this lens for so long that I can't tell. I find it somewhat implausible that half the population is dumb, racist and all those other labels. It seems much more likely that I…

It's far more likely that half the population has been duped into following someone because of clever conniving. Trump knew exactly what to do to build up that base and now that their head is gone, the chicken is running around in the yard with no direction wondering what the hell happened. Once the dust settles, I think a lot of those people will reintegrate into society, especially if they start to receive the bene…

Just a nitpick but not "half of the US population" follows Trump.

Not even getting into the fallacy of attributing more than can be to participants of a binary choice dilemma, the American Republic presidential elections are not "1 person 1 vote" like most other democratic Republics.

Re: Apple has threatened to ban Parler from the App Store

#530

Post by p1318820 »

dmitrygr wrote: post #514
mzs wrote: post #508

>Anyone who buys an Apple phone is apparently a user. Apparently they know what is best for you by telling you which apps you may and may not use. Apparently they believe Parler is responsible for ALL user generated content on Parler. Therefor by the same logic, Apple must be responsible for ALL actions taken by their phones. Every car bomb, every illegal cell phone conversation, every illegal crime committed on an i…

Which part of what he said do you feel is incorrect? Facebook and Twitter indeed are not being held to the same standard. They have a 0% chance of being removed from any app store no matter what. Hell, the whole time Twitter allowed Trump to tweet and gave him a platform, they were threatened with app store delisting precisely 0 times.

Why do you feel that they should be held to the same standard?

Violent content is a tiny of percentage of twitter, but a huge part of parler. Twitter also does moderate their platform, Parler refuses to.

One of these obviously has a bigger problem with violent content than the other.

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