Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump • Hacker News Board

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#741

Post by 1MachineElf » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:09 AM UTC

mempko wrote: post #182

Rebelgecko wrote: post #54

Is it just my perception, or is their actual justification using the 2 quoted tweets kinda weak? Interpreting his boycott of an event as a call to violence seems like a huge stretch. It seems like they wanted to shoehorn a justification using his 2 latest tweets when the actual reason goes back further.

The thing is, Twitter has data on how people responded to those two Tweets. If Trump gets prosecuted, I expect we will see responses to Trumps tweets as evidence in court. My guess is they can make a statistical causal claim. Example, what if some of those who broke into the capital earlier replied to one of Trump's tweets in such a way as to suggest they were incited by Trump?

Were those actual people, or bots? Did the people say "yes, let's do a violent thing" or did Twitter interpret "yes, we will not give up" as a response to a dog whistle? There is no analysis showing how they came to that conclusion, and there is no trust in them from those who affected by these bans.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#742

Post by lenkite » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:09 AM UTC

bilbo0s wrote: post #612

oceanplexian wrote: post #537

IMHO there are things that are much more scary than some trespassing into government buildings or a riot. The possibility that we might slide backwards from traditionally liberal ideas spawned from the enlightenment is utterly terrifying. And we are rapidly heading in that direction.

Liberal ideas from the enlightenment are alive and well. Now if the government had banned Trump from speaking, then you would have a point. Twitter banning Trump is, at root, a business making a business decision. Here's reality, and I'm going to date myself here, but there were, long ago, enormously popular digital spaces called BBS's. You could chat, play games (MUDs mostly), etc etc. They are, by and large, no lon…

Yes. Agree, but only if you also remove Section 230 that provides immunity from civil liabilities for such businesses making business decisions.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#743

Post by pjc50 » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

rattlesnakedave wrote: post #341

ve55 wrote: post #44

This ban seems to heavily take advantage of the current moment, as it's obvious that he has tweeted worse things in the past. It's strange that they picked such a poor way to justify the ban when they could have made a significantly stronger case, and in doing so could have convinced millions more people that they are trying their best to apply policies evenly. For example, I have a hard time imagining why they chose…

>I think it will have some negative 2nd/3rd order effects. that they haven't yet realized. This is correct. The type of person that stormed the capitol will perceive this as an escalation. I’m sure that’s not what we need, but I’m also sure that there is no good way out of this mess.

On the one hand it looks bad for the incoming party to immediately replace the palace security and start issuing arrest warrants for opposition leaders, but on the other hand it may need to be done in order to run a government that isn't under physical siege on a regular basis.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#744

Post by biscotti » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

cure wrote: post #558

rattlesnakedave wrote: post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think it will have some negative 2nd/3rd order effects. that they haven't yet realized. This is correct. The type of person that stormed the capitol will perceive this as an escalation. I’m sure that’s not what we need, but I’m also sure that there is no good way out of this mess.

> The type of person that stormed the capitol will perceive this as an escalation. I’m sure that’s not what we need, but I’m also sure that there is no good way out of this mess. I actually think that the reason we are in this mess is because there have been zero consequences for terrible behavior, so far. Of all the terrible things Trump has done, it has taken inciting a riot, an attempted overthrow of our democrati…

He waged no wars and killed less innocent people than any other president in living history. The action in Syria at the beginning of his term he was reluctant to take & was practically forced into it by the state.

If the establishment, including the courts, had provided the transparency he was calling for and Zuckerberg hadn't thrown $100s of millions to bypass state laws and undermine safeguards in the election the West wouldn't be in this quandary.

Let's rather look at the moral compass of Bloomberg, Wall Street, big tech, the race baiting media and the industrial military complex, along with representatives who are a-ok allowing a crooked election go by and have used the Capitol riot, who some say had staged components, to prevent evidence being heard and go after those who would give it.

Their actions right now have no consequences and they're on track to have an aspirational and productive half of America unpersoned and the rest of us living in fear.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#745

Post by anigbrowl » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

Legion wrote: post #259

allendoerfer wrote: post #167

Does anybody have a solution to the bigger underlying question of de-platforming and censorship on online platforms? As far as I can tell, there are two general viewpoints: a) Censorship is bad, free speech is good. You should counter bad arguments with better arguments. b) There are types of speech, which are proven to lead to violence in the long-run. Also, some things can be proven as untrue. Lies are bad. I have…

> You should counter bad arguments with better arguments We've witnessed the fallacy of this argument. It assumes a level of rationality that has been proven to be unreasonable to assume. The problem isn't that "better" arguments aren't reaching people. Rather, we have watched people exercise an incredible ability to discard overwhelming evidence and embrace narratives that have literally zero evidence to support the…

Rationality is only half the issue. Not only are some people extremely irrational, many people are dishonest and knowingly feed bullshit to the irrational people to use them as an amplifier. That can be used to promulgate a false idea, or simply to steal the time of people in refuting it.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#746

Post by metabagel » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #274

ve55 wrote: post #44

This ban seems to heavily take advantage of the current moment, as it's obvious that he has tweeted worse things in the past. It's strange that they picked such a poor way to justify the ban when they could have made a significantly stronger case, and in doing so could have convinced millions more people that they are trying their best to apply policies evenly. For example, I have a hard time imagining why they chose…

I made a comment before to the effect, what happens when you are banned permanently from the biggest social media platforms currently in existence? Will these bans carry over and will they start to affect any who oppose the bans or simply parrot what he says elsewhere? Will these spawn new social media sites or will they damage existing ones or do both? This is all so fascinating and frightening at the same time. Peo…

Trump will take up shop on Parler and be welcomed with open arms.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#747

Post by roenxi » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:12 AM UTC

handmodel wrote: post #65

ve55 wrote: post #44

This ban seems to heavily take advantage of the current moment, as it's obvious that he has tweeted worse things in the past. It's strange that they picked such a poor way to justify the ban when they could have made a significantly stronger case, and in doing so could have convinced millions more people that they are trying their best to apply policies evenly. For example, I have a hard time imagining why they chose…

I think the logic isn't that hard. Person says bad things to whip up a mob - Twitter unsure to take him seriously or literally. Mob actually materializes and several people die - Twitter sure they now have to take him literally

A left-wing aligned media business has just taken a serious political action against the sitting president. They didn't even wait for the dust to settle and Trump to leave office. Twitter has not had time to link tweets in the internet world to actions in the real world; there is normally a settling after this sort of event where it turns out that what actually happened was different to the first two weeks of media reporting. When everyone calms down a month after the crisis, this will be looked back on as opening a can of worms that was a horrible mistake.

This protest in the Capitol is a right-wing escalation of a sustained left-wing effort to paint the 2016 election as illegitimate. The US is in trouble if this new thinking takes hold and businesses start exercising their right to discriminate politically. The country will be inoperable.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#748

Post by samizdis » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:13 AM UTC

handmodel wrote: post #65

ve55 wrote: post #44

This ban seems to heavily take advantage of the current moment, as it's obvious that he has tweeted worse things in the past. It's strange that they picked such a poor way to justify the ban when they could have made a significantly stronger case, and in doing so could have convinced millions more people that they are trying their best to apply policies evenly. For example, I have a hard time imagining why they chose…

I think the logic isn't that hard. Person says bad things to whip up a mob - Twitter unsure to take him seriously or literally. Mob actually materializes and several people die - Twitter sure they now have to take him literally

The seriously v literally question is fascinating. It was the basis for this recent NY Times article:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/opinion/trump-capitol-pro...

And that article references the original piece in The Atlantic that, inadvertently, provided the get-out for what the NYT laments:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/09/trump-m...

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#749

Post by busterarm » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

bargl wrote: post #431

This is gasoline on the fire. When banning someone like donald trump you need to have a great press release for justification. You need to point to something that people who are in the middle will read and think, yeah that makes sense, I'm surprised you didn't do that earlier. Instead, they have this PR that I honestly disagree with, even in the current climate, I don't see it. I can only think, they wanted to ban hi…

Lack of empathy to how we got here is the biggest problem.

Re: Permanent suspension of @realDonaldTrump

#750

Post by stefantalpalaru » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

dukeofdoom wrote: post #303

This has been an embarrassing incident to those in power because it made them look weak. But calling a populist movement with millions of supporters, terrorists is very short sighted. It will only accelerate the fire. The left soon will control all three branches of government, after an election that many people question, has been simultaneously advocating for censorship of its political adversaries, more draconian c…

> Letting people voice their grievances, is the last peaceful outlet before actual violence.

Tell that to Ian Murdock's friends-in-need.