Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency) • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#91

Post by avianlyric » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

paganel wrote: post #64

pmlnr wrote: post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

> Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating Not only that, but they insist that almost all vehicle transportation should be electric in maximum 10-15 years.

Not quite, they’re insisting all all new vehicles will be electric.

Even at that point it’ll still be decades before electric vehicles make up the majority of road traffic.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#92

Post by black6 » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:03 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #75

xenocratus wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you want people to use gas cars and gas-powered boilers to heat their home? Or should we make that more expensive as well so we can make sure more people spend more time with heating off in the winter?

Isn't a gas-powered heater more efficient than an electric heater powered by an LNG plant? Electric heating is pretty ineffective, although heat pumps can work well.

Yes. No line/transmission loss; direct heating from combustion.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#93

Post by ahartmetz » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:09 PM UTC

formerly_proven wrote: post #80

pmlnr wrote: post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

> Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating Which governments are those?

It should at least be heat pumps...

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#94

Post by a9h74j » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #66

lispm wrote: post #30

France seems to have problems generating enough electricity for the current winter demand. https://www.lefigaro.fr/conso/electricite-pour-eviter-des-co... https://www.connexionfrance.com/French-news/People-in-France... Britain, too: https://uk.news.yahoo.com/britains-national-grid-issues-warn... German press reports about cold temperature and of not enough nuclear power online in France. Reason: maintenance backlogs…

It's also more than ususally cold here in Barcelona, and many people have electric heating (inefficient but rarely needed). I don't know what I'd do if the power fails :S I have UPS power backup for my servers but not for heating obviously (that's way too much power for batteries)

If you aren't aware, heated vests consume ca 10W. I haven't tried one yet, but this is a direction I see things heading.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#95

Post by ericd » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

sorenjan wrote: post #86

pmlnr wrote: post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

That's strange, here in Sweden electric heating is seen as old and wasteful. In cities most use district heating, others use heat pumps or some kind of bio fuel. At least for new houses, but it's also common as a retrofit.

I kind of assumed they meant heat pump or resistive, mandating resistive heating would be insane.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#96

Post by MayeulC » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:18 PM UTC

dadzilla wrote: post #76

99_00 wrote: post #74

Why aren't power outages in California and Europe partly due to the adoption of solar and wind?

That would be politically inconvenient.

No, that would be using solar as a scapegoat for bad planning.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#97

Post by flal_ » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

ahartmetz wrote: post #93

formerly_proven wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating Which governments are those?

It should at least be heat pumps...

heat pump are highly inefficient if outside temp gets below ~5 degC and that's what happening right now on most of Europe ( incl. southern europe, I saw spain mentionned here ... )

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#98

Post by readflaggedcomm » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:20 PM UTC

formerly_proven wrote: post #80

pmlnr wrote: post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

> Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating Which governments are those?

This UK document specifically mentions phasing out "high carbon fossil fuel heating" installations in new construction, which seems like the sort of thing the GP referenced, though it also mentions heat pumps as a non-resistive-heating option: https://www.gov.uk/government/groups/heat-in-buildings

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#99

Post by cjg_ » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

tomatotomato37 wrote: post #81

pmlnr wrote: post #54

Yet governments insist newbuilds to be on electric heating... I was saying this won't be nice for a long time. Example: my house, a 1954 built semi-detached - the official average unit in England - has a single phase 100A main cutout. Hob 32A, 2x sockets circuits 2x16A, 2x light circuits 2x6A, oven 16A. That's already 92A at total theoretical capacity. If I was to add FIR panels, that's bare minimum +32A, plus water…

I live in a tropical climate so I'm completely clueless on heating systems but has municipal steam heating been completely abandoned? It seems more efficient than both individual gas or electric heaters once you take conversion loses into account

Would say that almost all cities / larger towns in Sweden has municipal heating via hot water. And acc. to wikipedia around half of all housing units in Denmark, Sweden and Finland has municipal heating.

Re: Europe: close to power grid blackout (49,74Hz power line frequency)

#100

Post by fsh » Fri, Jan 08, 2021, 5:26 PM UTC

99_00 wrote: post #74

Why aren't power outages in California and Europe partly due to the adoption of solar and wind?

The average duration of power outages in Germany has been on a steady decline over the last 15 years [1]. The fraction of electricity generated from renewable sources has increased from around 10% to over 40% in the same period of time [2].

[1] https://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/DE/Sachgebiete/Elektrizitae...

[2] https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/themen/klima-energie/erneuerb...