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U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

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Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#871

Post by Hnrobert42 »

bumbada wrote: post #527
dhruvkar wrote: post #47

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

There is no argument here. The fact is that you should never let electronic voting machines ever in the first place. I went crazy the first time I saw them in the US long time ago and said: "this is the end of democracy" You should only count physical ballots in front of someone that represents all the parties. As an engineer I can not trust them. There are 20 different ways I can cheat using those machines, from net…

I agree about the need for paper ballots. I disagree with the indefensibly broad claim that without a national ID card, it is a joke.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#872

Post by phs318u »

_qulr wrote: post #295
umvi wrote: post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

The people do it to themselves. They believe what they want to believe, hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see. This is still largely a free country where there are multiple independent sources of "news", and individuals voluntarily expose themselves or not to whatever they choose. As far as I know, nobody is tied down in a chair and forced to watch certain TV shows or listen to certain radio shows fo…

> They believe what they want to believe, hear what they want to hear, see what they want to see.

> nobody is tied down in a chair and forced to watch certain TV shows or listen to certain radio shows for hours, days, weeks, months at a time, to the exclusion of all else.

Doesn’t this behaviour sound familiar? To me it sounds like addiction. What has changed is not our capacity to become addicted but the willingness of some to exploit this weakness for money and/or power. From the internet outrage generators to the social media outrage amplifiers. The addictiveness of outrage is now fully weaponised by those who have fully succumbed to the addictiveness of power and money. No handbrakes. No filters. No conscience. Lots of self denial, self delusion, self-justification.

The collision of these two addictions will destroy us if not unwound.

EDIT: auto-correct correction.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#873

Post by finndark »

userbinator wrote: post #695
umvi wrote: post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

Seeing things like this make me wonder how long it will be until the US splits into two roughly equal-sized countries.

But when you try to imagine how it could be split up there are all kinds of problems. e.g., obviously CA + NY makes sense plus some large cities(e.g., Chicago). It all seems untenable w/o excessive relocation a la Stalin.

Truly splitting up the USA would require a war and that's more trouble than its worth in most peoples' opinions: I've kinda grown fond of letting my neighbor's kid cut the lawn for $25, even though he is a Democrat.

Now, OTOH, spinning off a state or two is within reach: e.g., giving CA and NY their independence would be fine with me. But then that's just me!8-))

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#875

Post by hairofadog »

ntsplnkv2 wrote: post #724
ineedasername wrote: post #358

This is what happens when a country's leaders actively dog whistle an incitement to violence and others hitch their political future to fiction & propaganda instead of fact.

Anyone with a brain knew this was coming. Honestly it's shocking how many on HN try to defend it. This isn't a republican or democrat issue anymore after what Pence and McConnell said today. The man is a tyrant, and we should all be thankful it is not far, far worse than this.

I agree with you; it’s disheartening to see how many people here are suggesting that “both sides” are more or less the same and that the real problem is the left and “MSM”. I expected more from this community.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#876

Post by thisrod »

bcherny wrote: post #639
umvi wrote: post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

I just finished Lippmann’s 1922 classic Public Opinion. In it he argues that different people may draw completely different conclusions from the same facts due to three things: 1. Sampling. There’s a big universe of facts, and each media outlet reports on a tiny piece of this universe. 2. Stereotypes. When you read a news story, you unconsciously pattern match and associate it to related examples you have in your min…

Good timing! I've just finished Le Bon and Bernays.

> people may draw completely different conclusions from the same facts

Le Bon points out a more basic issue. He wrote about the kinds of crowds who used to storm the Bastille and so on—and appear to have returned to American history today after a long vacation. He concluded that the members of such crowds simply don't do things like considering facts or drawing conclusions. Instead, they associate chains of images and follow suggestions from prestigious leaders. TV advertisments do exactly what he suggested, and so does Donald Trump. It appears to work.

This puts me in a dilemma. As a physicist with egalitarian tendencies, I want everyone to take action that will provide the things they want and need, according to valid arguments founded on the laws of nature. But apparently, one of those laws of nature says that valid reasons have nothing in common with the reasons people do things.

Bernays resolved that dilemma by telling people like me to manipulate everyone else into doing what (we believe) is in their best interest. I'm really uncomfortable with that position, but it's hard to see an alternative.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#877

Post by ashtonkem »

eloff wrote: post #823
samch wrote: post #528

I think, for the safety of all involved, it may be time to enact section 4 of the 25th Amendment. Amendment 25 - Section 4: Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the Pr…

That's a bad idea. His presidency is basically over. The only thing it would accomplish is to convince his diehard supporters that a coup is in fact taking place and they should respond in kind.

This attitude seems like a way for the republic to die with a whimper.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#878

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

bumbada wrote: post #527
dhruvkar wrote: post #47

Are there people here on HN that believe the election was stolen? I haven't seen any evidence, most of the lawsuits haven't borne fruit either. However, I also recognize that there may be blindspots/biases. I'd really like to hear from anyone who believes this, to present a cogent argument. I promise not to attack. I want to hear the argument from the other side. I also beseech the rest of HN to please refrain from a…

There is no argument here. The fact is that you should never let electronic voting machines ever in the first place. I went crazy the first time I saw them in the US long time ago and said: "this is the end of democracy" You should only count physical ballots in front of someone that represents all the parties. As an engineer I can not trust them. There are 20 different ways I can cheat using those machines, from net…

I posted this response in another comment, but I'll post it here because I've seen so much misinformation on the topic. This website, https://ballotpedia.org/Voting_methods_and_equipment_by_stat..., shows voting methods by state, and you'll see that nearly all of them produce a voter-verifiable paper trail.

Here are the list of states that have at least some electronic voting withOUT a paper trail:

Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, New Jersey, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Texas

7 of those states were won by Trump, 1 by Biden, and none of those states were even within 15 percentage point margin except for Texas, which Trump won by 5 and a half percent.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#879

Post by zthrowaway »

umvi wrote: post #72

How did we arrive to this point where a huge chunk of the population is in one reality and another huge chunk of the population is in another reality? Segregation of information sources? Politicization of media outlets? Self-reinforcing social bubbles? A combination of all of them and more?

I believe the Social Dilemma documentary on Netflix answers this question pretty well.

Re: U.S. Capitol Locked Down Amid Escalating Protests

#880

Post by hndudette2 »

samch wrote: post #528

I think, for the safety of all involved, it may be time to enact section 4 of the 25th Amendment. Amendment 25 - Section 4: Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the Pr…

Terrible idea. He's out in two weeks. Why stir up his base and invite confirmation bias when he's already out the door? That would be risking a lot to gain very little.
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