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Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

arstechnica.com

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Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#271

Post by INTPenis »

xxpor wrote: post #232
ransom1538 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,[15]" You could walk into a liquor store - pistol whip a clerk then rob the joint and do less time. AND at least if you pistol whip a clerk you get parole. You wont get federal parole if you try to guess a computer password [1]. https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/is-federal-parole-sy...

There's absolutely 0 chance he ever would have done anywhere near the statutory maximum. Statutory maximum != sentencing guidelines.

Probably not but if you have a possibility of 35 years in a US prison, or even 5 years, looming over you that is a heavy burden. And we all know how it turned out.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#272

Post by himinlomax »

SulfurHexaFluri wrote: post #170
nathanyz wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is one of the great imbalances in the justice system where technically corporations are people, but criminally don't face anywhere near the same levels of punishment.

IMO everyone related to a corporate crime should be responsible. If a company dumps toxic waste in to a river, the person who pressed the dump button, the person who told them to and any management that signed off on the idea should all be personally as responsible as if I just took a bucket and walked down to the local river. Perhaps some exceptions for people who could not be expected to understand the law, for exa…

> the person who pressed the dump button

That person would often be paid minimum wage, have at best a high school education and so on. That may not exactly be fair in all cases.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#273

Post by canofbars »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #270
Larrikin wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same argument that tech corporations say should apply to them. They should be allowed to grow uncontrollably to make as much money as possible but it's actually impossible for them to know the details (moderate content in this specific iteration of the argument) of what they have grown. The point of this thread is the same argument against that very idea. If the organization is so big that the CEO believe…

But you can't know all of that. Imagine some local wallmart having an issue with something (eg. a bunch of expired chemicals, that have to be disposed as dengerous), and they don't want to deal with that in a proper way, and some local manager tells some local worker, to just dump the chemicals into a stream behind the wallmart. Usually noone notices stuff like that, if the chemicals are not "too bad" (=fish die), th…

The problem is management can just abuse this by saying something like "Dispose of these chemicals safely, you have 5 minutes to be back". The manager clearly said to do it safely but 5 minutes only leaves time to dump them unsafely. How do you assign blame to the manager or even higher systems which tell people to do these things without literally saying it.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#274

Post by canofbars »

saghm wrote: post #254
gameman144 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the concept of this, but it seems like it'd be tough to validate that something was actually illegal from the individual actor's level. For instance, if management made clear that the hack here was illegal, the individual person doing the typing is just as culpable. It seems like it'd be very easy to mask that from above, however (e.g. telling a junior developer that there was a contract with Songkick and they…

Okay, so whoever lied about there being a contract (and anyone who authorizatied the lie) should be culpable.

I guess the problem is the higher ups know not to put any of this on record and the new person doesn't know that they should be recording this info so when it gets investigated its all "I never told him to do that".

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#275

Post by Kosirich »

How is 10 million fine deterrent to other companies trying to do the same or what is the incentives for companies to really impose internal ethic guidelines, rule following ect. and not just in name only? How are the company holders incentivized to hold management accountable? Perhaps I'm reading too much into this, but as a major holder of the company it seems it would be in my interest to encourage my management in doing what ever they deem necessary to come on top, even if it means breaking the law, as the "spoils" in the end will justify the fine. This reminded me of the VW case where management involved in illegal activates surrounding emission test fraud, prepared funds to pay the fine in advance.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#276

Post by beefield »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #270
Larrikin wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the same argument that tech corporations say should apply to them. They should be allowed to grow uncontrollably to make as much money as possible but it's actually impossible for them to know the details (moderate content in this specific iteration of the argument) of what they have grown. The point of this thread is the same argument against that very idea. If the organization is so big that the CEO believe…

But you can't know all of that. Imagine some local wallmart having an issue with something (eg. a bunch of expired chemicals, that have to be disposed as dengerous), and they don't want to deal with that in a proper way, and some local manager tells some local worker, to just dump the chemicals into a stream behind the wallmart. Usually noone notices stuff like that, if the chemicals are not "too bad" (=fish die), th…

> it's unrealistic to expect the CEO to even know that that local walmart exists

Maybe, just maybe we then should not have so large entities that nobody can be responsible for? Limited liability is a massive handout from society to the owners of the Limited liability company and should be priced accordingly. (I do not propose banning limited liability. I propose being more selective how and which operations actually deserve limited liability. And tax it appropriately.)

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#277

Post by adventured »

bitcharmer wrote: post #265
Spivak wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As much as the liberal-libertarian crowd on HN likes to be vocal against most forms of government licensure, protection from ethical breaches like this is one of the best things about them. You can tell your employer to pound sand because neither you nor anyone they could replace you with will be willing to risk their license to do something unethical. And even if they could find someone sketch to try and push it thr…

I'm not leftist and I haven't observed any strong bias here. HN crowd is leftist only by US standards but then US is a country where most people think public health care is communism.

~42%-45% of the US population is in Medicaid, Medicare or other government healthcare solutions. It's very clear that most people in the US do not think socialized / public healthcare is tantamount to Communism.

The US is left leaning compared to the majority of all nations.

Besides that, the US is far more progressive than eg Europe in many respects (and that's ignoring parts of Europe still ruled by actual fascism and dictatorship, countries where it's perfectly legal to beat your wife if you so choose and being gay is practically a crime). In the majority of Europe gay marriage is still illegal. How much more regressive and backwards can you get? The US is at least a decade ahead of Europe when it comes to gay rights and identity / gender matters.

In Denmark they're committing vast human rights violations against minority Muslims while the world looks the other way. Is that left by US standards? I don't see the US forcing cultural eradication upon Muslims or taking their children away from them and indoctrinating them with nationalistic propaganda.

Across Western Europe de facto Neo Nazi parties hold immense political power.

In France Macron has practically declared open cultural war against Muslims.

Formerly open immigration nations like Sweden have become hyper xenophobic and have locked down access. Neo Nazism is rampant in Germany and so is xenophobia. Meanwhile the US is one of the few affluent nations on the planet that still welcomes the poor and the non-skilled, you don't need to be rich or successful to immigrate into the US (and that's before Biden's Presidency begins, in which the Democrats will dramatically liberalize immigration).

Progressiveness is vanishing from Europe, while the US is becoming more progressive by the decade. So where are all these nations around the world that are a lot further left than the US? There are maybe a dozen, tops.

The US now spends more on its welfare state as a share of its economy than either Canada or Australia. In the next 10-15 years it'll catch up to Britain on that point.

The US is also progressing much faster on drug decriminalization and legalization than Europe is. And half of Europe is guaranteed to remain backwards, regressive, on all of the previously mentioned items.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#278

Post by jjeaff »

onethought wrote: post #268
ocdtrekkie wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the things I found incredible about the antitrust hearings this past year was how heavily every Big Tech CEO relied on "I don't know", "I don't recall", or "I'll have to get back to you". Often about things I, an outsider, know of. It strains plausibility they didn't know, they're just punting to a time they aren't under oath.

If it’s a crime for you to misspeak wouldn’t you err on the side of caution? Anti trust hearings of 4 tech companies at once... ridiculous... All 4 of you have a monopoly on... something! Bullshit politics. You aren’t being forced to use ANY services from big tech in the US there is HEAPS of competition. Just US lawmakers shoring up constituents

While I very much dislike the anticompetitive practices of these companies, I have to agree they aren't really close to monopolies. Google and Facebook are not social media companies. They are advertising companies. They sell ad space. There are still a lot of different ways to spend as money.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#279

Post by ajsnigrutin »

beefield wrote: post #276
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you can't know all of that. Imagine some local wallmart having an issue with something (eg. a bunch of expired chemicals, that have to be disposed as dengerous), and they don't want to deal with that in a proper way, and some local manager tells some local worker, to just dump the chemicals into a stream behind the wallmart. Usually noone notices stuff like that, if the chemicals are not "too bad" (=fish die), th…

> it's unrealistic to expect the CEO to even know that that local walmart exists Maybe, just maybe we then should not have so large entities that nobody can be responsible for? Limited liability is a massive handout from society to the owners of the Limited liability company and should be priced accordingly. (I do not propose banning limited liability. I propose being more selective how and which operations actually…

But this is true even with companies that have only two stores. Even one if it's open for more than one shift.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#280

Post by Chris2048 »

Larrikin wrote: post #267
Chris2048 wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think CEO is the right level. It may be the top position with high pay, but a CEO is so high up the food-chain that they touch very little. Any level of management with a direct responsibility is where blame should lie.

This is the same argument that tech corporations say should apply to them. They should be allowed to grow uncontrollably to make as much money as possible but it's actually impossible for them to know the details (moderate content in this specific iteration of the argument) of what they have grown. The point of this thread is the same argument against that very idea. If the organization is so big that the CEO believe…

> but it's actually impossible for them

but what is "them" in this case. You are talking about the corporation, but does this mean CEOs, managers, or some combination of the two?

I'm not sure I'm arguing along those lines at all. What I'm saying is most CEOs are far removed from anything direct, but I'm not sure how that translates to "and therefore no one is".

> They should be ultimately responsible for the entire organization

I disagree. You don't really argue why, and I argue, at least, that it's not at all practically. Best case it leads to scapegoating the CEO for things they aren't best positioned to control, and/or executive-levels micromanaging lower levels for fear of liability.

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