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Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

asahilinux.org

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Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#181

Post by Twisell »

DCKing wrote: post #128
saagarjha wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's what Apple said at all–they just said the ball is in their court, which means that they want Microsoft to write Bootcamp essentially.

Yeah. Someone - cough cough Microsoft - would need to be convinced to write a Boot Camp Assistant app equivalent (okay), a Windows bootloader (okay), various device drivers for Apple Silicon hardware revisions for Windows (big ugh), graphics drivers for Apple Silicon GPUs for Windows (VERY big ugh). Microsoft will need to very motivated to distribute Windows on ARM for this to happen, even if Apple gives them access…

Apple have developed Bootcamp and provided drivers so far for Intel Mac. But shipping Bootcamp for Windows ARM would be an EULA violation until Microsoft loosen theirs conditions. Changing this is literally step 1.

Wether Apple would develop Bootcamp for ARM or not is purely theoretical discourse until then.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#182

Post by GordonS »

marcan_42 wrote: post #135
libria wrote: post #7

Very interesting overall. > Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight? > Our goal is not just to make Linux run on these machines, but to polish it to the point where it can be used as a daily OS. Do…

It's a feature because it's literally a whole set of command line options and settings in their boot policies, which is documented in man pages, with all the warnings about normal users not having to use any of this that you'd expect. It's a whole pile of code that Apple doesn't need, and could've just removed or never written in the first place, that was written explicitly and only so people could run unsigned kerne…

This is really promising, but I do think scepticism is warranted - Apple loves their walled gardens.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#183

Post by colonwqbang »

lrvick wrote: post #133
Bluerise wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First of all the feature wasn't available in the initial Big Sur release and it only got available during the Betas for the first minor patch. Second of all, some Apple developer stated on Twitter that (during M1 unveil) he's finally able to show all the boot policy work they worked on the past year(s) to allow users to boot foreign OSes and without opening up holes for attackers. Basically it boils down to: they cou…

Kind of like all the work Sony did to allow Linux on the PS4 only to kill it later? You don't own a mac. You can only do on it what it is profitable for Apple to let you do, today. As much as I respect the incredible RE skills required for this task, I feel like this is shaky foundation unless an unpatchable bootrom exploit is discovered. Even then new models would be patched leaving existing users with an insecure p…

The same goes for any device you can buy today. We should demand more of manufacturers in general, I agree.

But you cannot expect that Apple should give you a legally enforceable contract (or whatever) pertaining to a product you haven't bought yet and they haven't even made yet.

The fact that the boot process on the M1 chip is explicitly not locked down on release is at least showing a modicum of goodwill.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#184

Post by DCKing »

bsaul wrote: post #173
DCKing wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a bad faith argument. The presupposition is that Apple is inherently motivated to actively lock things down, because that's what they do with the iPhone. This glosses over that Apple has no reason to actually do so, only has reasons not to do it on the Mac, and has gone on record saying they won't treat the Mac as the iPhone. It's based on the notion that Apple would be against free booting a priori for some rea…

The reason people assume apple will prevent you from doing what you want with your computer, is because it’s the logical consequence of the strategy they’ve followed for the past 10 years over their whole product line. From phones, to cable, to messenging software. They’re into vertical integration and walled ecosystem.

Simply asserting this without evidence does not make it so.

If Apple truly had this strategy they're doing a horrible job at it. Mostly since you are free to boot (or work on doing so at least) NetBSD and countless other things on practically every Mac they've ever released, including the latest ones. They're doing a horrible job at communicating this strategy too, because they're communicating the opposite. For this Apple Silicon phase, it seems they've also missed a huge opportunity to finally execute on this strategy by spending a little time and money to develop the tools to do the opposite of that strategy and give users a way to boot unsigned kernels.

I just don't buy it, sorry. I don't even get why Apple would want to do this outside of sheer malice.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#185

Post by userbinator »

sergeykish wrote: post #138
turbinerneiter wrote: post #72

A lot of time, money and effort invested to support a platform whos creator is unwilling to provide support. I think it's part of the Linux ethos to run on everything, but I also think this kind of effort is ... not wasted, but I feel like it could be spent more efficiently. Still looking forward to hear about the first successful boots and the epic reverse engineering feats. Just wish this kind of stuff wouldn't be…

Yes, but isn't same true about most of the hardware? Just a fraction of notebooks comes with Linux. I'd like to but I've never bought one. Smartphone manufacturers are not cooperative, NVIDIA got finger. Personally I would not recommend buying hardware thinking it would be supported in the future. Linux hardware acceleration for Intel GMA 500 (Poulsbo) never materialized.

Linux hardware acceleration for Intel GMA 500 (Poulsbo) never materialized.

Ironically there is a bit of an underground effort on Chinese forums for getting acceleration on Windows 9x using the leaked SGX code and docs. I came across that a while ago when I was looking for something else, when it was still in its early stages. If you do not care about EULAs and other Imaginary Property laws, there is a whole new world to explore...

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#186

Post by pricci »

monocasa wrote: post #151
lrvick wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of like all the work Sony did to allow Linux on the PS4 only to kill it later? You don't own a mac. You can only do on it what it is profitable for Apple to let you do, today. As much as I respect the incredible RE skills required for this task, I feel like this is shaky foundation unless an unpatchable bootrom exploit is discovered. Even then new models would be patched leaving existing users with an insecure p…

PS3, and supposedly that was because some jurisdictions treated game consoles and computers differently for import tariffs (computers being cheaper to import), but those jurisdictions changed to not having a distinction. Agreed with the underlying point you're making though. They allow this because it aligns with their current strategic objectives, and changes to those objectives can be arbitrary and capricious, at l…

I remember it was because geohot "jailbreaked" the PS3 using the Linux capabilities to some extent.

But I could be wrong.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#187

Post by Pokepokalypse »

libria wrote: post #7

Very interesting overall. > Apple allows booting unsigned/custom kernels on Apple Silicon macs without a jailbreak! This isn’t a hack or an omission, but an actual feature that Apple built into these devices. Indefinitely? How do we know it's a feature vs a temporarily convenient oversight? > Our goal is not just to make Linux run on these machines, but to polish it to the point where it can be used as a daily OS. Do…

Seems to me that it would also be a great opportunity to port each of these builds to a homebrew package.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#188

Post by skavi »

SomeHacker44 wrote: post #177
pkulak wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mac hardware is just so damn good though. And everywhere. I absolutely agree with what you're saying... but man, Linux working well on an M1 Mac would be my ideal machine.

Every time I accidentally hit something on the touch bar, I hate that I still have a Mac. Every time I intentionally use the ESC and have to touch it two or three times, I hate the Mac. Every time I need an F key, or want to do something without looking (like change volume or hit mute), I hate the Mac. Thank goodness this year I stopped using it so much as I did not have to repair the keyboard twice and potentially g…

They’ve swapped out the butterfly switches for more conventional scissors. They’ve also added back a hardware ESC for all models and never added a touchbar to the Air.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#189

Post by DCKing »

Twisell wrote: post #181
DCKing wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. Someone - cough cough Microsoft - would need to be convinced to write a Boot Camp Assistant app equivalent (okay), a Windows bootloader (okay), various device drivers for Apple Silicon hardware revisions for Windows (big ugh), graphics drivers for Apple Silicon GPUs for Windows (VERY big ugh). Microsoft will need to very motivated to distribute Windows on ARM for this to happen, even if Apple gives them access…

Apple have developed Bootcamp and provided drivers so far for Intel Mac. But shipping Bootcamp for Windows ARM would be an EULA violation until Microsoft loosen theirs conditions. Changing this is literally step 1. Wether Apple would develop Bootcamp for ARM or not is purely theoretical discourse until then.

The only driver Apples needed to develop for Windows are Mac specifics though, like the stuff that was managed by the T1. Not trivial, but not the end of the world to have to make. Things like wifi drivers and especially the graphics drivers are just the chip vendor's standard preexisting Windows drivers.

Apple is now the vendor of at least the GPU. I don't think they're going to write a Windows driver for that - the incentives are just not there.

Re: Asahi Linux: Linux on Apple Silicon project

#190

Post by newacct583 »

ogre_codes wrote: post #14

Just a reminder, the Patreon is not fully funded. If people really want to see this happen, dropping a couple dollars a month to help support the project is the best way. https://www.patreon.com/marcan

No, Apple actually supporting it (in the same way that Intel, AMD, ARM/Linaro et. al. staff resources to support their hardware on Linux) is the best way. But paying productive engineers via crowdfunding isn't an awful workaround.
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