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I refuse to tolerate assholes

jacobian.org

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Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#71

Post by sophacles »

awj wrote: post #38
sophacles wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the reactionary ideals you promote enforce and enable sliminess. The person with the best presentation and fakest smile wins over any actual merit. You are actively endorsing the world of used-car salesmen, A&R reps, and so on, where substance and a solid stance are detrimental to success. Pathological extremes at both ends are still pathological, the correct response to an extreme is not its opposite, but a…

...how did you make that leap? Where does "it should be possible for being a jerk to get you fired" lead to "enforcing and enabling sliminess"? It is entirely possible to hold a firm stance on what you think is the correct approach without being a jerk. It is equally possible to create a friendly atmosphere without acting like a used car salesman. I think you're reading more into the GP's statements than was intended…

I agree, however the post I responded to was in fact rejecting a call for some moderation and tolerance. Rejecting those is a stance of extremism, and the extreme case of "no assholes" is "fake-nice/smarmy".

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#72

Post by viking »

raganwald wrote: post #34

It's a gross oversimplification, but I try to live according to the dictum that it is easy to bifurcate behaviours into good and bad, but people are complex and subject to change, thus it is very difficult for me to brand someone as an "asshole." http://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-05-0... UPDATE: Thinking about the OP, I wonder if seeing behaviours as simple and people as complex actually helps y…

Great and insightful comment! However, I think most "assholes" has an justification of their behavior that they find sufficient.

If the person thinks the greatness and contribution of their work is somehow dependent on the antisocial behavior, then it's hard to convinced them to separate behavior from action.

As a side-note I think this kind of asshole behavior is as prevalent in non-technical types as technical types.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#73

Post by mtoddh »

rauljara wrote: post #10

Preface: Something I've noticed about jerks/assholes: they're convinced that they're surrounded by jerks and/or assholes. Almost none of them are jerks for no reason. They're almost always jerks in response to some slight (either imagined, or blown way out of proportion). A good sign that you might be a jerk is that you see jerks all around you. Most people are basically all right. If you (1) run into conflicts with…

From the article, "The vast majority of people I’ve met through my work in open source communities are friendly, warm, and funny...Once in a while, though, I’ve run into assholes."

While what you say may be true, in this case, it does not sound like he's convinced he's surrounded by assholes. Rather that during the few times he's encountered them, he simply decided not to put up with their behavior.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#74

Post by kaitnieks »

Tharkun wrote: post #49

It's an old sore. And every once in a while someone bitches and moans about it. Big whoop. Pat yourself on the back for calling out anti-social behaviour. You made the world a better place. Now shut up and hack. Right? The thing about these arseholes is that they, just like you, are doing this on their own, because they enjoy doing it. They're giving up their time to create something that other people can use, usuall…

Sure, but calling someone who hasn't read the manual a moron takes more effort that shutting the fuck up. So either help the poor illiterate person or shut the fuck up. It's not like this person knows that there were 58 persons before with the very same question and then the next one will come and won't know that you just called this one a moron and ask the same question again, so you're not solving anything. Quick copy-paste of a link with the answer is a much better and easier solution, don't you think?

I used to lead a community and those were my rules - help or keep silent; tolerate others. That's not so difficult, is it?

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#75

Post by rikthevik »

ryandvm wrote: post #50

Half-serious question: Why isn't being an asshole a clinically recognized disability? I have yet to meet a reformed asshole, so I've come to the conclusion that it's an inherent part of one's personality. No different than OCD, ADHD, sexual addiction, etc.

> I have yet to meet a reformed asshole, so I've come to the conclusion that it's an inherent part of one's personality.

I disagree. I've witnessed many people acquire empathy as they grow older and start treating others better. I know (hope) that I'm certainly not as impetuous or quick to judge as I was in my youth.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#76

Post by Archaeum »

jacobian wrote: post #52
raganwald wrote: post #34

It's a gross oversimplification, but I try to live according to the dictum that it is easy to bifurcate behaviours into good and bad, but people are complex and subject to change, thus it is very difficult for me to brand someone as an "asshole." http://github.com/raganwald/homoiconic/blob/master/2009-05-0... UPDATE: Thinking about the OP, I wonder if seeing behaviours as simple and people as complex actually helps y…

> But if you focus on the behaviour, you can try to negotiate: "You are a genius, your work on ___ is brilliant. However, this behaviour ____ is unacceptable, please stop doing it. Here is why..., Here is something more constructive you could consider..." Incredibly well said - that's the point I was reaching towards and couldn't quite articulate perfectly, apparently. Ideally, we'd call out shitty behavior and chang…

Typically, I've managed to maintain a decent working relationship even with people others found virtually intolerable. My natural inclination is to let the more abrasive aspects of their personalities slide, but sometimes I doubt this approach, because occasionally what it means is taking them less seriously as human beings. Their idiosyncrasies can be predictable, so I'm tempted to think of them as machines. In one sense, it's convenient: I rarely get angry at machines, so why would I get angry at machine-like people? On the other hand, it's dismissive and lazy.

What you're talking about is rejecting cynicism, assuming things can change, believing things are worth changing, and being willing to put in the effort to call out the jerks. As long as you do it constructively, you end up humanizing people who probably need it--and you might even make a difference! So, for all our sakes, please keep it up.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#77

Post by sophacles »

jacobian wrote: post #55
wccrawford wrote: post #5

Have you looked in the mirror, man? That entire posts exudes the exact same behavior you are condemning. You've asked for them to be fired? That wasn't your place, and the penalty is far too harsh for the crime. You were attempting to ruin their livelihood because you don't like them. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." - The Bible. Nobody would get to throw a stone. Nobody fits the criteria of being 'p…

In the case I'm talking about, the gentleman in question threw a chair out a window halfway through a meeting. This after months of threatening violence against co-workers after showing up to work drunk. You bet your ass I asked for him to be fired. He wasn't, so I quit. I'm very sorry that my post rubbed you the wrong way. My intention is simply to suggest that we shouldn't tolerate antisocial behavior in our commun…

I disagree with your lumping "drunken violent chair throwing" into a the exact same catagory as "guy who sarcastically responds to a person not reading the documentation". Really, extreme reactions like 0-tolerance are no better than tolerance for the extreme misbehavior you describe.

I propose that a large portion of the reaction against your statements is that until this comment, many or most of the people assumed you meant a more common form of asshole: e.g. the guy who defends his code too hard, or the guy who isn't good at criticizing others' work. The term asshole, at least as used by large numbers of people, applies to both cases. Getting someone fired because they are a bit caustic is not at all an appropriate reaction, whereas as a response to violence it is (probably) an appropriate reaction.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#78

Post by astrodust »

Jd wrote: post #26
keithwinstein wrote: post #11

This article really strikes a chord. In several nerd organizations at MIT, there are longstanding "assholes" who are brilliant people and whose contributions are very valuable and educational to other members, but who typically write acerbic and harsh messages. (Almost always their criticism is directed at other longtime members, not directly at new members, but even new members see these messages or interactions in…

Many people who are perceived as "acerbic" are simply direct and don't engage in the poo-pooing that characterizes many human social interactions. To get rid of them is to revert to a less intelligent form of life.

There's a difference between people who simply have poor social skills, where they'll say things like "You're obviously an idiot because that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard" and those who are assholes who say things like "All are stupid, just like you".

It's all degrees of asshole-ism, perhaps.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#80

Post by astrodust »

absconditus wrote: post #27
erikpukinskis wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If one of my coworkers was being abusive to anyone I would absolutely expect my boss to fire them. Edit: Or I would expect the boss to fire themselves for not being able to protect the team from the asshole.

Should Steve Jobs be fired?

He's a dick, not an asshole. South Park explains the distinction in their epic musical.
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