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I refuse to tolerate assholes

jacobian.org

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Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#21

Post by erikpukinskis »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #14

> These people behave in a way that would not be tolerated in real life. I’ve worked with a few of these jerks in real life, and when they’ve been unable to restrain their behavior I’ve asked for them to be fired, and I’ve quit. Just because you couldn't tolerate them doesn't mean they aren't tolerated. When you asked for them to be fired (instead of asking the manager to talk to them about their behavior), were they…

If one of my coworkers was being abusive to anyone I would absolutely expect my boss to fire them.

Edit: Or I would expect the boss to fire themselves for not being able to protect the team from the asshole.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#23

Post by mestudent »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #18
ericHosick wrote: post #4

I have similar feelings about this. There are billions of people on the earth and hundreds of millions of them are cool. So, why waste time with people who aren't nice when there are so many nice people to meet?

Because maybe those many nice people couldn't program their way out of a wet paper sack. If I'm looking for someone to go to a bar with, I'll pick the nice person. If I need someone to help me complete a project at work, I'll probably try to find someone who's good at what they do, regardless of whether they're an asshole or not.

You can do that but these people that act like jerks or asshole really do alienate and demotivate others, so while you might be able to handle them if you have a group of people an asshole can really destroy productivity.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#24

Post by nowarninglabel »

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

Another point, which the author could have also argued, is that assholes push or scare others out of open-source communities. Much of the time, the people scared away are not profilic contributors, however many of them had the potential to become so if they were nurtured. I certainly wasn't the best coder when I started contributing to Drupal (and I'm still not), but I managed to do a lot of good for it both in code and evangelizing for it. Had it not been for the leaders in the community who were super-nice (e.g., Neil Drumm and Angie Byron), then I would have let the jerks keep me from using and contributing back to something I loved. However, I noticed that as I became a better and more knowledgeable contributor, it was easier for me to fall into the behavior of sounding like a jerk myself. We (or at least I) have to constantly check ourselves to ensure we are doing good for the community and sticking true to our nice roots.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#25

Post by erikpukinskis »

keithwinstein wrote: post #11

This article really strikes a chord. In several nerd organizations at MIT, there are longstanding "assholes" who are brilliant people and whose contributions are very valuable and educational to other members, but who typically write acerbic and harsh messages. (Almost always their criticism is directed at other longtime members, not directly at new members, but even new members see these messages or interactions in…

raised to value civility above diversity of experience and raw merit?

You're forgetting all of the brilliant people who, for reasons of their own, prefer not to work alongside these assholes. That is diversity your organizations have historically missed out on.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#26

Post by Jd »

keithwinstein wrote: post #11

This article really strikes a chord. In several nerd organizations at MIT, there are longstanding "assholes" who are brilliant people and whose contributions are very valuable and educational to other members, but who typically write acerbic and harsh messages. (Almost always their criticism is directed at other longtime members, not directly at new members, but even new members see these messages or interactions in…

Many people who are perceived as "acerbic" are simply direct and don't engage in the poo-pooing that characterizes many human social interactions. To get rid of them is to revert to a less intelligent form of life.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#27

Post by absconditus »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #21
pavel_lishin wrote: post #14

> These people behave in a way that would not be tolerated in real life. I’ve worked with a few of these jerks in real life, and when they’ve been unable to restrain their behavior I’ve asked for them to be fired, and I’ve quit. Just because you couldn't tolerate them doesn't mean they aren't tolerated. When you asked for them to be fired (instead of asking the manager to talk to them about their behavior), were they…

If one of my coworkers was being abusive to anyone I would absolutely expect my boss to fire them. Edit: Or I would expect the boss to fire themselves for not being able to protect the team from the asshole.

Should Steve Jobs be fired?

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#28

Post by pavel_lishin »

erikpukinskis wrote: post #21
pavel_lishin wrote: post #14

> These people behave in a way that would not be tolerated in real life. I’ve worked with a few of these jerks in real life, and when they’ve been unable to restrain their behavior I’ve asked for them to be fired, and I’ve quit. Just because you couldn't tolerate them doesn't mean they aren't tolerated. When you asked for them to be fired (instead of asking the manager to talk to them about their behavior), were they…

If one of my coworkers was being abusive to anyone I would absolutely expect my boss to fire them. Edit: Or I would expect the boss to fire themselves for not being able to protect the team from the asshole.

Everyone's definition of "asshole" differs, of course, but I think someone can be an asshole without necessarily being abusive.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#29

Post by pavel_lishin »

mestudent wrote: post #23
pavel_lishin wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because maybe those many nice people couldn't program their way out of a wet paper sack. If I'm looking for someone to go to a bar with, I'll pick the nice person. If I need someone to help me complete a project at work, I'll probably try to find someone who's good at what they do, regardless of whether they're an asshole or not.

You can do that but these people that act like jerks or asshole really do alienate and demotivate others, so while you might be able to handle them if you have a group of people an asshole can really destroy productivity.

That's very true, an asshole can wreck productivity. But we're human beings, and we excuse deficiencies in one area for excellence in another. If the asshole produces more than he destroys, it might be worth keeping him on board.

ymmv, and all that, of course.

Re: I refuse to tolerate assholes

#30

Post by sophacles »

ericb wrote: post #9
wccrawford wrote: post #5

Have you looked in the mirror, man? That entire posts exudes the exact same behavior you are condemning. You've asked for them to be fired? That wasn't your place, and the penalty is far too harsh for the crime. You were attempting to ruin their livelihood because you don't like them. "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." - The Bible. Nobody would get to throw a stone. Nobody fits the criteria of being 'p…

I think the attitude you endorse just enables the assholism. Assholes ruin their own livelihood by being assholes, no need to blame the victims of their vitriol. For any given job, there are hundreds of other equally deserving candidates who aren't jerks . Getting fired gives assholes a chance to learn their behavior isn't acceptable, and is only fair to the more-deserving candidate who then fills the position.

I think the reactionary ideals you promote enforce and enable sliminess. The person with the best presentation and fakest smile wins over any actual merit. You are actively endorsing the world of used-car salesmen, A&R reps, and so on, where substance and a solid stance are detrimental to success.

Pathological extremes at both ends are still pathological, the correct response to an extreme is not its opposite, but a reasonable alternative.

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