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Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

arstechnica.com

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Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#121

Post by 8note »

ogre_codes wrote: post #40
aqme28 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If corporate management knew about and encouraged this behavior, how is that not "Ticketmaster" doing it? IMO both the individuals and the corporation should be held responsible.

I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought here. Corporations can't act, people inside the corporations act. If laws get broken, the individuals who made that choice should pay the price. This wasn't a defense of the company, I'm fine with the company getting fined here, so long as the people who did this get penalized as well. So long as we let companies be a sort of shelter for the people inside the company, this kind…

The individuals in the corporation did it on behalf of the owners. The owners should be held accountable

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#122

Post by 8note »

moftz wrote: post #42
gruez wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercing_the_corporate_veil#Fa... >Factors that a court may consider when determining whether or not to pierce the corporate veil include the following >[...] >Was the corporation being used as a "façade" for dominant shareholder(s) personal dealings; alter ego theory;

Right, if they think your "corporation" is just a shell to shield you from justice, they will just prosecute you instead of going with the charade of trying to punish your shell company. The feds rarely have trouble prosecuting someone when they want to, they've got somewhere between 95-99% conviction rate.

Isn't that conviction rate based on not pursuing cases that aren't a sure shot?

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#123

Post by 8note »

buran77 wrote: post #35
maedla wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be nationalized to become an even better revenue stream

While superficially a good idea, it would probably punish shareholders more than the actual perpetrators and would most likely lead to a far lower performing company, so a weaker economy. How many state run companies do you know are performing great? Tesla may do any number of shady or illegal things but without Musk and his vested interest in the company it would probably be a footnote in some corporate obituary.

The shareholders are the right people to hold accountable though.

Otherwise you incentivize hiring fall guys to do a crime and go to prison, while the shareholders profit off of their crimes

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#124

Post by kelnos »

ogre_codes wrote: post #40
aqme28 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If corporate management knew about and encouraged this behavior, how is that not "Ticketmaster" doing it? IMO both the individuals and the corporation should be held responsible.

I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought here. Corporations can't act, people inside the corporations act. If laws get broken, the individuals who made that choice should pay the price. This wasn't a defense of the company, I'm fine with the company getting fined here, so long as the people who did this get penalized as well. So long as we let companies be a sort of shelter for the people inside the company, this kind…

I agree that both the people involved and the company should be legally liable in this case.

The important point to me about the company being liable is that a) the company itself benefited from the crime, and b) management knew about the crime happening; this wasn't a single rogue employee who did crimes and hid that fact from everyone else. (Contrast this to an employee using company resources, in secret, to commit a crime that only benefits the employee.)

And no consequences for the people involved means there's no deterrence. In the future, employees with unethical management will realize that they can do this sort of thing with little risk to their own livelihood, so why not give it a try?

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#125

Post by nOObie1 »

paxys wrote: post #70
Nacdor wrote: post #45

> Ticketmaster has agreed to pay a $10 million criminal fine Live Nation is worth $16 Billion. This is like a person with a $100k net worth having to pay a $62 fine, basically an expensive parking ticket. They might as well tell them to write "I will not hack my competitors" on the blackboard 100 times.

It isn't even an expensive parking ticket. Traffic fines in the Bay Area are in the hundreds even for minor offenses.

The Bay Area and expensive are already synonymous

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#126

Post by kelnos »

8note wrote: post #122
moftz wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, if they think your "corporation" is just a shell to shield you from justice, they will just prosecute you instead of going with the charade of trying to punish your shell company. The feds rarely have trouble prosecuting someone when they want to, they've got somewhere between 95-99% conviction rate.

Isn't that conviction rate based on not pursuing cases that aren't a sure shot?

Well, sure, conviction rates only cover cases when charges were filed, so we'll never know when they decided not to bring charges in the first place because the strength their case didn't meet some internal threshold.

But I think the Feds are pretty good at building cases. Since it's a crime to lie to a federal investigator, all they have to do is find some fact they can prove about you that you'd be likely to lie about, and get you to lie. (Technically the lie has to be material to the investigation, but in practice any vaguely related lie seems to do.) Apparently it's often not that hard to do; they're trained to exploit the psychology of the situation to their advantage.

And once you've lied, they have something on you, and they can use that as leverage to get more.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#127

Post by nickff »

munk-a wrote: post #106
s1artibartfast wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not restitution if the money doesn’t go the harmed party

Restitution is one of the comparably less important facets of our legal system (IMO), the important strength of a good legal system is deterrence. Restitution should (again IMO) in fact be severed from judgement, harmed parties should be reimbursed by the government and the government can excise penalties on the offending parties. There are a lot of cases where defendants should be hit with serious fines due to the p…

Aren't people constantly arguing that deterrence is ineffective against individuals, and that rehabilitation is best? I don't take a personal view on these things, but I would imagine that the people arguing for more severe 'punishment' of corporations and white-collar criminals are the ones arguing for lenience in violent and other individual crime.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#128

Post by kelnos »

anigbrowl wrote: post #78
h2odragon wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of the "sovereign citizen" folks have a whole mythology based on "incorporated people", it has some appeal in that it'd be nice if there was just one law and it applied to all. Why can't we have our own personal corporations, which can stiff our creditors, cheat customers, etc etc with impunity? Surely all the social benefits of allowing this behavior from groups would only multiply if these liberties extended t…

I have a certain sympathy for the SovCit people, because while 99 times out of 100 they're trying to evade their legal responsibilities, they are making a valid point that such evasion is in many ways institutionalized in our society as long as you can throw some money at the problem ahead of time.

I have sympathy for the concept, but not the people. All the videos I've seen of them arguing their cases are so mind-numbingly stupid that it pisses me off just that they're wasting taxpayer money taking up law enforcement and court time with their bullshit "tactics".

Reality doesn't fly out the window just because they want something to be true.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#130

Post by spoonjim »

swsieber wrote: post #60
jnsie wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kind of like saying "the 49ers didn't lose, their players did"...

No, the equivalent of this in the sports world would be fining a team some thousands of dollars for drug abuse instead of banning the offending players.

which they should, if the drug abuse was encouraged by team leaders and rewarded with promotions/contracts.
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