Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business • Hacker News Board

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#31

Post by gruez » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

pacamara619 wrote: post #28

gruez wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the corporation will kill people without consequences. ...except the corporation being fined and/or sued in civil court, along with the executives/engineers responsible facing criminal charges.

It's gonna be the same thing as it is now: "Tragic. Thoughts and prayers. Software problem. Nothing we could do."

That literally describes the situation now with human drivers. The only difference is that human drivers get more sympathy because most voters are also drivers.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#32

Post by Eridrus » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

anotherman554 wrote: post #24

NeverFade wrote: post #3

A corporation criminally hacked a rival for profit and got away with a small fine. A person doing the exact same thing would be heading to prison. Seems like the same crime has a very different outcome when a corporation commits it.

This is why the public should never support self driving cars: the corporation will kill people without consequences.

Drivers often do not face any consequences for killing people as it is. Unless the driver was intoxicated, it is generally written off as an accident.

If only the people who get outraged about self-driving cars were as outraged by this fact and applied pressure to improve street design and speed limit enforcement.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#33

Post by aaron-santos » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

NeverFade wrote: post #3

A corporation criminally hacked a rival for profit and got away with a small fine. A person doing the exact same thing would be heading to prison. Seems like the same crime has a very different outcome when a corporation commits it.

Surely someone performed the hacking. Would this person(s) not be criminally liable?

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#34

Post by babycake » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #27

anotherman554 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why the public should never support self driving cars: the corporation will kill people without consequences.

>the corporation will kill people without consequences. ...except the corporation being fined and/or sued in civil court, along with the executives/engineers responsible facing criminal charges.

Remember not long ago when Uber killed a pedestrian?

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54175359

> Ms Vasquez was charged on 27 August, and made her first appearance in court on 15 September. The trial is now set for February next year.

> Despite the decision not to levy criminal charges against Uber itself, the company did not escape criticism.

> Days before the crash, an employee had warned his superiors that the vehicles were unsafe, were routinely in accidents, and raised concerns about the training of operators.

> Following the crash, authorities in Arizona suspended Uber's ability to test self-driving cars on the state's public roads, and Uber ended its tests in the state. It received permission to carry out tests in the state of California earlier this year.

So despite all the safety failures by the company, just the hired driver was charged...

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#35

Post by buran77 » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

maedla wrote: post #16

xwdv wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A corporation regular committing crimes is a good revenue stream if they pay the fines consistently. So yes, the outcome is expected to be different, this shouldn’t be mind blowing.

They should be nationalized to become an even better revenue stream

While superficially a good idea, it would probably punish shareholders more than the actual perpetrators and would most likely lead to a far lower performing company, so a weaker economy. How many state run companies do you know are performing great?

Tesla may do any number of shady or illegal things but without Musk and his vested interest in the company it would probably be a footnote in some corporate obituary.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#36

Post by giobox » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

partiallypro wrote: post #12

I still can't believe regulators allowed Ticketmaster and Live Nation to merge

I was at law school during that merger and it was a major focus of the Competition Law course, one of the most obvious monopolies that was ever allowed to proceed in recent times really. I think entire academic staff expected the opposite outcome too!

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#37

Post by gruez » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:55 PM UTC

babycake wrote: post #34

gruez wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the corporation will kill people without consequences. ...except the corporation being fined and/or sued in civil court, along with the executives/engineers responsible facing criminal charges.

Remember not long ago when Uber killed a pedestrian? https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-54175359 > Ms Vasquez was charged on 27 August, and made her first appearance in court on 15 September. The trial is now set for February next year. > Despite the decision not to levy criminal charges against Uber itself, the company did not escape criticism. > Days before the crash, an employee had warned his superiors that the…

>> Days before the crash, an employee had warned his superiors that the vehicles were unsafe, were routinely in accidents, and raised concerns about the training of operators.

>So despite all the safety failures by the company, just the hired driver was charged...

A thought experiment: if a municipality was warned about safety failures about its streets (high speed limits, poor lighting/signage, lack of pedestrian crossings), and some kid got killed in a car accident, should the municipality be liable? What if everything that uber/the municipality did was within the law, and the only thing they're guilty of is not taking additional safety measures? eg. dropping the speed limit to 20mph in suburbs will probably eliminate all pedestrian deaths, should the municipality be liable if it set the speed limit to 30mph and the kid died?

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#38

Post by andrewzah » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:56 PM UTC

anotherman554 wrote: post #24

NeverFade wrote: post #3

A corporation criminally hacked a rival for profit and got away with a small fine. A person doing the exact same thing would be heading to prison. Seems like the same crime has a very different outcome when a corporation commits it.

This is why the public should never support self driving cars: the corporation will kill people without consequences.

There are an insane amount of car accident-related deaths & injuries every year. At least 30,000 deaths/year in the USA alone. Because humans drive tired, drunk, while texting, etc, and sometimes just make mistakes.

With fully automated driving the number of crashes (and therefore injuries & deaths) will go down -dramatically-. So you can argue all you want about the ethics & morality of the ~100 deaths/year or so from automated car crashes. But that's far preferable to the current situation. Even if we still have 10-20k deaths/year from automated driving systems, that's still a large improvement.

This argument about the ethics of contrived car accident scenarios totally misses the boat. In my opinion the only ethical argument is to move over to fully automated driving systems as soon as -safely- possible.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#39

Post by triceratops » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

anotherman554 wrote: post #24

NeverFade wrote: post #3

A corporation criminally hacked a rival for profit and got away with a small fine. A person doing the exact same thing would be heading to prison. Seems like the same crime has a very different outcome when a corporation commits it.

This is why the public should never support self driving cars: the corporation will kill people without consequences.

Going by that logic transportation of any sort should never be provided by any corporation.

Re: Ticketmaster admits it hacked Songkick before it went out of business

#40

Post by ogre_codes » Tue, Jan 05, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

aqme28 wrote: post #22

ogre_codes wrote: post #7

I hate the way this article is worded. Or perhaps the problem is the source documents. "Ticketmaster" didn't do anything. Ticketmaster is a company which cannot make decisions or take actions. - An employee at Ticketmaster stole a password (and financial documents) - Multiple other Ticketmaster employees abused that stolen information to actively attack a competitor. - Ticketmaster management was aware of this and re…

If corporate management knew about and encouraged this behavior, how is that not "Ticketmaster" doing it? IMO both the individuals and the corporation should be held responsible.

I guess I wasn't as clear as I thought here.

Corporations can't act, people inside the corporations act. If laws get broken, the individuals who made that choice should pay the price. This wasn't a defense of the company, I'm fine with the company getting fined here, so long as the people who did this get penalized as well.

So long as we let companies be a sort of shelter for the people inside the company, this kind of activity will continue.