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Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#201

Post by abduhl »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #197
abduhl wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to square your comment that there are "no restrictions against travel" with reality. These are just three examples I happen to know of off the top of my head. The remainder of the assertions in your post suffer from the same fundamental flaw. Hawaii: The islands of Oahu, Maui, Molokai, Lanai, and Hawaii continue with the state’s pre-travel testing program. Travelers must have their negative test results pri…

That’s three states out of 50 and Hawaii is the only one with any sort of enforcement. I travelled to NM (also subject to a 14 day quarantine). Zero enforcement, totally voluntary and business travel exempted.

Ignoring the obvious here that your original statement was there are “NO” travel restrictions, your reply is a no true Scotsman fallacy. There are clearly travel restrictions but you, and most other people, are not adhering to them. Just like the majority of lockdown rules. Maybe if people like you had followed the travel restrictions we wouldn’t be in our current position where you’re still arguing that curtailing fundamental freedoms is necessary?

If you don’t get a ticket, does that mean that no speed restrictions exist?

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#202

Post by matz1 »

Silhouette wrote: post #199
matz1 wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same story happen in 2016,2017,2018,2019. This just show that the system need to be better managed, not lockdown. Lockdown is just cop out and not only it doesn't help it creates tons of additional problem.

It's easy to say something is bad. It's more difficult to say what, specifically, would be better. What exactly would "better managed" look like, in your opinion, and what evidence do you have that your version of events would result in better outcomes than the lockdown measures that have been used?

You posted link about ambulance delays. This is issue is not caused by covid, because it happened as well in the past where there was not covid.

By implementing lockdown, now you have 2 issue : Ambulance delay and the damage from lockdown.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#203

Post by jasonlaramburu »

abduhl wrote: post #201
jasonlaramburu wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s three states out of 50 and Hawaii is the only one with any sort of enforcement. I travelled to NM (also subject to a 14 day quarantine). Zero enforcement, totally voluntary and business travel exempted.

Ignoring the obvious here that your original statement was there are “NO” travel restrictions, your reply is a no true Scotsman fallacy. There are clearly travel restrictions but you, and most other people, are not adhering to them. Just like the majority of lockdown rules. Maybe if people like you had followed the travel restrictions we wouldn’t be in our current position where you’re still arguing that curtailing f…

> Maybe if people like you had followed the travel restrictions

Excuse me, I was traveling for business. I complied with the regulations exactly as they are written.

You can complain about people ‘not following the rules’ all you want but it changes nothing. There are no meaningful travel restrictions enforced anywhere on the US mainland. Without enforcement, Americans do not and will not follow them.

Hawaii is the only state with actual enforcement and compliance.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#204

Post by waterglassFull »

ketamine__ wrote: post #195
waterglassFull wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The COVID strategy isn't the reason for their fallout. It is the government's attack on the CCP and pushing for an inquiry.

That is the Covid strategy. If they weren't heavy handed they wouldn't have these opinions and push for an inquiry.

You're conflating Diplomatic Strategy and Pandemic Control together

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#205

Post by jasonlaramburu »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #174
jasonlaramburu wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People horrified to enter a hospital despite needing medical care. I have not heard of anyone who is ‘scared’ to go to the hospital. I have heard of many hospitals in coastal states being forced to turn away elective procedures due to lack of bed space (from covid cases). Have you ever stopped to consider that, lockdown or not, people simply aren’t choosing to do the things they used to? There are no restrictions a…

> Have you ever stopped to consider that, lockdown or not, people simply aren’t choosing to do the things they used to? So we don’t need mandates?

Mandates will increase compliance and save more lives.

Sorry but your position contradicts itself and smacks of confirmation bias. If the US government really were systematically corrupt and authoritarian, why would they want to curtail economic activity? They would tell everyone not to worry about COVID and keep driving, eating out, shopping etc to maximize tax revenue and the availability of bribes.

I have read that many people believe outlandish conspiracy theories because humans have trouble accepting the reality that sometimes, bad things simply happen for no rational reason. It is easier for many to believe that a secret government cabal is conspiring to keep people in their homes than to accept that a deadly virus has infected millions of innocents and created massive global inconvenience.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#206

Post by jasonlaramburu »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #168
qubitcoder wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that these measures are _temporary_? If people shared the same ideas about sacrifice, the United States would've never prevailed in WWII. Personally, it seems like objections to basic preventive measures, such as wearing a mask, are more rooted in ego and entitlement. And that is often coupled with spurious ideas about government overreach (which, while sometimes valid, isn't exactly a cogent argu…

> Have you considered that these measures are _temporary_? I will never consider this given the excesses and absolute indefensible failures of the emergency powers introduced in service of the Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/etc. wars. Nothing has been rolled back. Emergency powers should never be treated as temporary given history. > Personally, it seems like objections to basic preventive measures, such as wearing a mask, a…

>Emergency powers should never be treated as temporary given history.

If this were true, why were the lockdowns in China (an unabashedly authoritarian country) temporary? People in Wuhan are going to nightclubs without masks today.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#207

Post by ketamine__ »

waterglassFull wrote: post #204
ketamine__ wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the Covid strategy. If they weren't heavy handed they wouldn't have these opinions and push for an inquiry.

You're conflating Diplomatic Strategy and Pandemic Control together

It's basically the same heavy handed strategy: Go hard!

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#208

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #205
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you ever stopped to consider that, lockdown or not, people simply aren’t choosing to do the things they used to? So we don’t need mandates?

Mandates will increase compliance and save more lives. Sorry but your position contradicts itself and smacks of confirmation bias. If the US government really were systematically corrupt and authoritarian, why would they want to curtail economic activity? They would tell everyone not to worry about COVID and keep driving, eating out, shopping etc to maximize tax revenue and the availability of bribes. I have read tha…

> because humans have trouble accepting the reality that sometimes, bad things simply happen for no rational reason

I believe this and I think it applies to all the lockdowns and moral superiority stuff where people are shamed for not following NPIs that don't seem effective.

It's as though the pro-lockdown side can't accept that sometimes tragedy happens and we're relatively powerless to stop it. So, unable to accept that they point fingers to anyone around them. Who must we demonize? Hunt the witch!

They suppose there must be non-compliant people if the lockdowns aren't working. And so they fight the hidden enemy. As though if there's a minority of people not complying, that population wouldn't have been exhausted through infection after a year.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#209

Post by iso1210 »

uncledave wrote: post #81
ubercow13 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unclear how cancer and mental health patients would be any better off with less sacrifices, that would lead to the health care system being more overwhelmed, not less.

I think you need to look at the future not just now. The overall side effects of burning care now may have a higher body count than covid. Case in point if you look at the austerity policy attributed deaths as a reference. I know someone who just got handed a guaranteed poor cancer outcome because her preventative surgery will only be done when it’s an emergency later on. These will be easy to write off as incidental…

If hospitals are full, then cancel paitents won't be diagnosed.

Had we locked down 2 weeks ago when SAGE said "Lock down now or else!" we'd have fewer people in hospital and more beds for preventative cancer surgery.

Sure, you could go round with a flamethrower burning anyone over the age of 70 for using precious resources just so you could have the pub open for a few more days. Is that your solution?

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#210

Post by iso1210 »

uncledave wrote: post #111
ubercow13 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of that is bad, but I don't think avoiding lockdown or other measures would help with it. The images in the media of people dying in the street outside hospitals would just lead to more social/political pressure to deprioritise those cancer patients.

Translated it’d make the politicians look bad for all those cuts.

What cuts, the NHS has an extra £350m a week as of last Friday.

(/s)

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