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Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#171

Post by matz1 »

Silhouette wrote: post #152
qeternity wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you realise that in two successive comments, you have literally just claimed that hospitals are not really filling up, then claimed that reports from front-line staff working in those hospitals don't prove anything? Um, what? That's exactly right. Hospitals are not filling up. The NHS own data shows this. The fact that doctors think the hospitals are filling up is irrelevant. People's estimates of things are not…

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-55430397 https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/coronavirus-... Etc.

Same story happen in 2016,2017,2018,2019. This just show that the system need to be better managed, not lockdown.

Lockdown is just cop out and not only it doesn't help it creates tons of additional problem.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#172

Post by jasonlaramburu »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #170
jasonlaramburu wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're arguing that we should outlaw something that's vital to human life. Social interaction. You’re being a bit dramatic about this. People can still use zoom, have socially-distanced meetups on their lawn etc. That’s a big difference from isolation.

> You’re being a bit dramatic about this. This is how an abuser talks. "Why do you care so much?" Say that to the working class person whose livelihood depends on the continuity of public life. The person months behind on rent and jobless. Anyone contemplating suicide. Millions of children deprived of close to a year and counting of in-person education at a crucial point of their development that will never come back…

> People horrified to enter a hospital despite needing medical care.

I have not heard of anyone who is ‘scared’ to go to the hospital. I have heard of many hospitals in coastal states being forced to turn away elective procedures due to lack of bed space (from covid cases).

Have you ever stopped to consider that, lockdown or not, people simply aren’t choosing to do the things they used to? There are no restrictions against travel, yet people aren’t taking as many vacations. Most states today have no restrictions on dining, yet restaurant revenues are down by half. The service and hospitality industries were going to take a hit from covid regardless of lockdowns.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#173

Post by djsumdog »

Daishiman wrote: post #167
djsumdog wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and very low cost The costs are high. Estimates show millions, if not over a billion, of these things will make their way into oceans. That's massive environmental damage: https://nypost.com/2020/12/28/more-than-1-5b-masks-will-poll... They have a high social cost. They are causing fear and adding stigma. People are judging one another for mask usage out of pure religion reasoning. If they are not very effective, w…

This is the stupidest comment I have read in this thread.

The fact that you cannot see any of these problems or understand how they are fracturing people and groups all around the world is part of the problem itself. These are all highly legitimate concerns you just dismiss with a whimsical "that's stupid."

People who just accept masks and advocate for them immediately without question are also very likely to murder the person in the other room in the Stanley Milgram experiments. That should concern you and everybody.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#174

Post by gnusty_gnurc »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #172
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re being a bit dramatic about this. This is how an abuser talks. "Why do you care so much?" Say that to the working class person whose livelihood depends on the continuity of public life. The person months behind on rent and jobless. Anyone contemplating suicide. Millions of children deprived of close to a year and counting of in-person education at a crucial point of their development that will never come back…

> People horrified to enter a hospital despite needing medical care. I have not heard of anyone who is ‘scared’ to go to the hospital. I have heard of many hospitals in coastal states being forced to turn away elective procedures due to lack of bed space (from covid cases). Have you ever stopped to consider that, lockdown or not, people simply aren’t choosing to do the things they used to? There are no restrictions a…

> Have you ever stopped to consider that, lockdown or not, people simply aren’t choosing to do the things they used to?

So we don’t need mandates?

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#175

Post by djsumdog »

c0nducktr wrote: post #164
djsumdog wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tell that to my best friend in the UK who's Italian flatmate committed suicide back in March.

I truly am not trying to be insensitive, but didn't these restrictions only just barely begin back in March? It's difficult for me to see the causation.

I went back and found the e-mail. She said in it, "I was doing OK there until one of my Italian colleagues committed suicide as he couldn't take the lockdown. He was in his 20s..."

So sorry, not flatmate, workmate. If the lock-downs weren't the main cause, I'm sure they certainly didn't help.

Keep in mind Thomas Schäfer, a German minister of fiance, committed suicide by train in March as well.

Another person I know told me his daughter's best friend killed herself during the lockdowns as well, and that was during the fall.

And I'll say this too, if I was in my 20s right now, I'd be at very high risk for suicide. I've had a lot of years under me and am in a much better place right now. But if I was younger and had access to firearms like I did back then, I most likely would not be here.

This has got to stop.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#176

Post by djsumdog »

qubitcoder wrote: post #159
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Harmful to society" is a poor standard used to justify a lot of evil stuff. That standard once included homosexuality. It was the basis for eugenics. Also like I mentioned before - Prohibition. It's a standard that's ultimately subjective and self-deceiving. You're arguing that we should outlaw something that's vital to human life. Social interaction. Violence, on the other hand, is clearly not necessary or virtuous…

Have you considered that these measures are _temporary_? If people shared the same ideas about sacrifice, the United States would've never prevailed in WWII. Personally, it seems like objections to basic preventive measures, such as wearing a mask, are more rooted in ego and entitlement. And that is often coupled with spurious ideas about government overreach (which, while sometimes valid, isn't exactly a cogent argu…

> temporary

It has been 10 MONTHS!. 10 FUCKING MONTHS. This isn't temporary anymore. There is literally no end in sight. Canada, the UK, and parts of the UK have INCREASED restrictions. Everyone is saying, "Well they didn't lockdown hard enough the first time"

This is morally reprehensible.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#177

Post by djsumdog »

gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #168
qubitcoder wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you considered that these measures are _temporary_? If people shared the same ideas about sacrifice, the United States would've never prevailed in WWII. Personally, it seems like objections to basic preventive measures, such as wearing a mask, are more rooted in ego and entitlement. And that is often coupled with spurious ideas about government overreach (which, while sometimes valid, isn't exactly a cogent argu…

> Have you considered that these measures are _temporary_? I will never consider this given the excesses and absolute indefensible failures of the emergency powers introduced in service of the Iraq/Afghanistan/Libya/etc. wars. Nothing has been rolled back. Emergency powers should never be treated as temporary given history. > Personally, it seems like objections to basic preventive measures, such as wearing a mask, a…

> Emergency powers should never be treated as temporary given history

The TSA. Body Scanners. Removing your shoes (America only; it's the only country out of the 10+ I've flow through that forced you to still remove your shoes. Some people do it in other places out of habit, but no one else actually requires it).

> Entitlement? Entitlement is how to describe every comfy white collar worker that rolls out of bed and hops on Zoom, and then condescendingly and abusively berates everyone else that does not have that privilege

The vast majority of people on here are silicon valley types. They don't understand people are loosing their businesses, their lives, their savings and their minds. They've never been out to the country and seen farms or know people who grow food. They see all republicans as racist and the enemy. It's dissociative, sad and frightening.

> If masks solved the issue (which clearly they don't)

Thank you for having some sense. The numbers are really clear on mask usage. Zero correlation and no better than a coin flip. It has a high social cost too. People are berating others for wearing masks. It's created a new talisman, and ideology and religion. It's causing insane amounts of pollution and textile waste that will further damage our oceans. It's terrifying.

Thank you for saying what you have. I have a comfy job where I can work from home, but I have been in touch with an America and a world that is falling apart, yet also gripped by insane and unreasonable fear. This is a terrible time, for reasons many cannot truly grasp.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#178

Post by EForEndeavour »

iridium_core wrote: post #103
flagrant wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The citations do not support what you say. Citation [0] says only that excess mortality in specifically the third quarter of 2020 was not higher than previous years. It says nothing about the excess deaths for all of 2020. Citation [1] is data for 2019, before COVID-19. Why did you cite these articles and pretend they say something they don't?

Look at the data directly: https://www.euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#z-scores-by-country Difficult to see much excess death in the UK in the past few months beyond levels seen in the 2018 and 2017 flu seasons. New lockdowns also seem to be coordinated across the global right now, independent of local conditions. This absolutely seems like a coordinated global action to achieve some kind of strategic aim.

> Difficult to see much excess death in the UK in the past few months beyond levels seen in the 2018 and 2017 flu seasons.

Excess mortality is only just starting to creep back up. It's easy to see that UK excess deaths peaked in early April at a weekly rate nearly 4 times that of the highest pre-2020 peak (2018-01). Ideally, we'd avoid a repeat of that.

> This absolutely seems like a coordinated global action to achieve some kind of strategic aim.

Could said aim by any chance be to avoid running out of hospital beds?

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#179

Post by CyberDildonics »

djsumdog wrote: post #163
JohnCohorn wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s debate on how much masks reduce spread, and obviously a lot of variation in effectiveness given wildly different materials and design for masks that are not designed to be protective. But I’ve never heard of any serious scientific debate about their helping to some reasonable degree. With possibly high benefits and very low cost(in dollars and in freedom as compared to other measures) wearing masks while indo…

> and very low cost The costs are high. Estimates show millions, if not over a billion, of these things will make their way into oceans. That's massive environmental damage: https://nypost.com/2020/12/28/more-than-1-5b-masks-will-poll... They have a high social cost. They are causing fear and adding stigma. People are judging one another for mask usage out of pure religion reasoning. If they are not very effective, w…

This entire post is a disgusting and ridiculous way to to rationalize the selfish behavior of not wearing a mask in public. There is no reasonable person that would think these things in isolation. I feel gross after reading this nonsense.

Knowing that someone would try this hard to equate genuine travesties with putting fabric over your mouth and nose to protect others to advance some separate agenda when more than 1 out of every 1000 people in the US is already dead from covid is a grave disappointment.

Re: Covid: New lockdown for England as cases surge

#180

Post by abduhl »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #172
gnusty_gnurc wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You’re being a bit dramatic about this. This is how an abuser talks. "Why do you care so much?" Say that to the working class person whose livelihood depends on the continuity of public life. The person months behind on rent and jobless. Anyone contemplating suicide. Millions of children deprived of close to a year and counting of in-person education at a crucial point of their development that will never come back…

> People horrified to enter a hospital despite needing medical care. I have not heard of anyone who is ‘scared’ to go to the hospital. I have heard of many hospitals in coastal states being forced to turn away elective procedures due to lack of bed space (from covid cases). Have you ever stopped to consider that, lockdown or not, people simply aren’t choosing to do the things they used to? There are no restrictions a…

It's hard to square your comment that there are "no restrictions against travel" with reality. These are just three examples I happen to know of off the top of my head. The remainder of the assertions in your post suffer from the same fundamental flaw.

Hawaii: The islands of Oahu, Maui, Molokai, Lanai, and Hawaii continue with the state’s pre-travel testing program. Travelers must have their negative test results prior to departing as an alternative to Hawaii’s mandatory 10-day quarantine.

Beginning December 2, Kauai is temporarily pausing participation in this pre-testing program. All incoming trans-pacific and inter-county travelers to Kauai will face a mandatory 10-day quarantine.

https://www.gohawaii.com/travel-requirements

Chicago: Anyone traveling from a state on the Orange list is directed to obtain a negative COVID-19 test result no more than 72 hours prior to arrival in Chicago or quarantine for a 10-day period (or the duration of their time in Chicago, whichever is shorter). Anyone traveling from a state on the Red list must quarantine for a 10-day period or the duration of their time in Chicago, whichever is shorter. The Order is subject to the limited exemptions outlined in the ‘Exemptions tab’.

https://www.chicago.gov/city/en/sites/covid-19/home/emergenc...

Massachusetts: All visitors entering Massachusetts, including returning residents, who do not meet an exemption, are required to:

Complete the Massachusetts Travel Form prior to arrival, unless you are visiting from a lower-risk state designated by the Department of Public Health. Quarantine for 10 days or produce a negative COVID-19 test result that has been administered up to 72-hours prior to your arrival in Massachusetts. If your COVID-19 test result has not been received prior to arrival, visitors, and residents must quarantine until they receive a negative test result.

Failure to comply may result in a $500 fine per day.

https://www.mass.gov/info-details/covid-19-travel-order

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